Happenings in Wisconsin

voter3 wrote:

That is one hell of a tunnel to pop up in Chicago area. They are alive and well throughout the region. Hanging drywall siding and often electric and plumbing. Seems unfortunate they usually prey on fellow Hispanics. If they are not acting as unlicensed contractors they are working for someone who pays them under the table...not taxes and no insurance.

Yep, you bet'cha!

Poll: 61% oppose limiting union bargaining power
The public strongly opposes laws taking away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions as a way to ease state financial troubles, according to a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll.

The poll found that 61% would oppose a law in their state similar to one being considered in Wisconsin, compared with 33% who would favor such a law. [/quote]

happy jack wrote:

Heretic wrote:

happy jack wrote:

You capitalize the words 'Unions' and 'Collective Bargaining' the way some people capitalize the words 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'. To each his own deities, I reckon.

Seriously? He points out that yet another of your preconceived notion of this situation is completely wrong, and that's your rebuttal?

Scorpion wrote:

No, I don't think so, Jack....

It doesn't appear ....

This looks more and more like ....

If ....

He didn't refute anything I said; he merely engaged in unsubstantiated speculation - 'ifs' and 'maybes'. There was no basis for a rebuttal.

Yeah, well actually, I was just trying to be polite. I provided direct quotes from the Republican Majority leader and the Governor that clearly contradicted your contention that "it really doesn't need to be all or nothing."

I don't know how you can characterize direct quotes as "unsubstantiated." If one believes what the Governor and the leader of the Republicans are saying, then "all or nothing" is exactly what this is all about.

So do you believe them? Or do you still believe that the Republicans are merely engaging in "preemptive hardball?"

happy jack wrote:

Negotiations are not over, are they?

Yeah, well I don't want to belabor the point, but again, according to Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald...

Quote :

"You're not in negotiations. There is no negotiation," Fitzgerald said, cutting off one of the Democrats on the phone. "You need to get back to the floor of the Senate and offer any ideas you may have on final passage. That's where we're at. There is no negotiation."

I don't see how that can be interpreted as "the negotiations are not over."

You're correct about neither of us knowing how this whole thing is going to end. I have no frickin' idea.
All I know is that there is simply too much at stake here for the unions and the Democrats to agree to the terms that the Republicans have clearly characterized as non negotiable.

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Negotiations are not over, are they?

Yeah, well I don't want to belabor the point, but again, according to Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald...

Quote :

"You're not in negotiations. There is no negotiation," Fitzgerald said, cutting off one of the Democrats on the phone. "You need to get back to the floor of the Senate and offer any ideas you may have on final passage. That's where we're at. There is no negotiation."

I don't see how that can be interpreted as "the negotiations are not over."

You're correct about neither of us knowing how this whole thing is going to end. I have no frickin' idea.
All I know is that there is simply too much at stake here for the unions and the Democrats to agree to the terms that the Republicans have clearly characterized as non negotiable.

It's possible that the terms wouldn't be so non-negotiable if the Democrats would come out of hiding in Illinois and actually attempt to negotiate.

I don't see how they can do that. IIRC, if even one of them "comes out of hiding," they can be dragged to the floor, and the Republicans can then proceed immediately, because a quorum would then exist. It's certainly not the Democrats who are refusing to negotiate. They have made numerous attempts by phone to resolve this, but the Republican have made it quite clear that they are hell bent on passing the legislation without any concessions whatsoever.

happy jack wrote:

What is wrong with trying to lure companies to one's own state?
Companies do not exist in a vacuum - they need employees, a supply of which would be provided by the good citizens of Wisconsin. If the companies employ people who had previously been out of work, as they almost certainly will, then citizens who hadn't been paying income tax prior to their new-found employment will begin paying income tax themselves, offsetting the tax break given to the newly-arrived companies.
It's win-win.

Sounds great in print, but I just don't think there's enough to suggest that it works as well as claimed.

happy jack wrote:

the alternative seems to be to scare companies away from one's state with prohibitive tax rates, causing the citizens of one's state to remain unemployed, and forcing them into utilizing the state's safety net mechanisms in order to survive.

I think there's very little evidence suggesting that's the case, too. American families are just broke, even those working, and it has little to do with businesses fleeing tax rates. Thanks to the continued (and worsening) income inequality, our government is broke too. But rather than trying to garner money from the businesses and individuals that can actually afford it, they seem more focused on punishing the working class and unemployed even further. That certainly isn't going to help.

And if it is all about businesses fleeing tax rates, then it definitely isn't a fix at all; every time a business moves they leave behind newly unemployed workers. All we end up doing is shuffling around the unemployed.

happy jack wrote:

All that time they are using up the state's resources, they will have no taxable income to contribute to the state's revenues. The money will be flowing one way only - out of the state's coffers.

Helping the poor, like foodstamps and unemployment benefits, has a GDP increase per dollar that's double or triple what it is for those tax cuts.

And I always have to giggle a little bit when ever a conservative worries about "resource use". I'd like to think you're finally coming around to the idea, but I have to doubt it.

Well, Wisconsin, then Indiana Demobrats are adding to IL sales taxes!!!!!

Looks like they love being Fleabags, rather than stand and vote...they ran.

Who's paying for their lodging and etc., while not doing their job?


Just read that the Wisc. teachers' pensions well exceed what they made while working.

Maybe this is the "CHANGE" POTUS meant.

Except the Democrats are not fulfilling their representation, the "FOR THE PEOPLE , BY THE PEOPLE", etc.

Vote with your head, not with your feet, you FLEABAGS! I don't care if the R or D is after your name.

My guess is that there is going to be a HUGE gov't shut-down unless the FEDS don't demand from their employees the public pays for to tighten the belt....and leave the public unions out of this, at this point.

START with the FEDS/STATE/LOCAL - them come crying to those that pay their health insurance, the per diem. the whole nine yards they enjoy.

I quit the gov't back in the '70s because I saw the waste.

Don't know if this should go into this thread or start one in IL. But....since it is more related to this topic, after posting it, I certainly would appreciate YOUR opinion.

This deal seems to be spreading nationally.

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/news/eaton/3954261-452/wisconsin-fight-spells-doom-for-public-employee-unions.html

If two states ever were headed in polar opposite directions, it’s Wisconsin and Illinois.

As angry union protesters gathered outside the Wisconsin State Capitol in Madison, Gov. Scott Walker reiterated his plan to raise their pension and benefit contributions in order to reduce the cost to the state.

“We’re not going to compromise on the principle of balancing the budget. We’re not going to turn to higher taxes, it would cripple the economy,” Walker said over the weekend while secluded inside the Capitol.

Even at the mention of raising state employee health care and pension pay-ins, Illinois’ spineless Gov. Pat Quinn backs off. In 2009, teachers booed Quinn, and he withdrew his request that they pay 2 percent more for their health care benefits and pension pay-ins, Illinois’ spineless Gov. Pat Quinn backs off. In 2009, teachers booed Quinn, and he withdrew his request that they pay 2 percent more for their health care benefits.

When he sought concessions before his November election, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees negotiated with Quinn. They both got what they wanted: Quinn got a hefty campaign check, and the union reps successfully retained generous benefits.

And who ended up paying the bill for that deal? Illinois taxpayers. The same ones who always get stuck paying for deals unions and politicians make.

Public sector unions, however, could be facing their Waterloo in Madison.

While the first public sector unions found their way to the taxpayer trough in 1959 in Wisconsin, it has taken them 52 years to plunder through the state’s treasuries. The union rampage of taxpayers’ pockets is almost over.

“Gov. Walker is going to win everything he’s fighting for in Wisconsin,” Heritage Foundation fellow James Sherk said. “It will be a major victory for conservatives.”

Teacher, police, firefighter and state employee unions were a terrible idea to start with, the DC-based labor analyst said. Those representatives negotiating public sector union contracts for state and local governments are also elected to office by their taxpaying neighbors. No one’s comfortable with that.

“Even the earliest union leaders thought unions in the public sector were wrong,” Sherk said.

Why? Because there’s no competition among government services, such as schools and public safety services. If you don’t like a government service, the prices or what the agency offers, public sector services leave taxpayers no choice.

“Even in schools, if the teachers go on strike, parents can’t take their children to a neighboring private school for a few days until the teacher strike blows over,” Sherk said. “They’re stuck with no alternatives.”

With public education and no easy choice, teacher union members can cause uproar in two-career families when teachers walk out and there’s no one at home to watch the kids.

Public sector unions have tremendous leverage to get what they want. That’s why Walker is determined to remove collective bargaining from the Badger State’s labor options — because it’s a valuable, important tool for unions.

Even the Wisconsin union representatives themselves are willing to pay the requested 2 percent benefit pay in. They just don’t want to lose collective bargaining.

Private sector union members, such as Teamsters, who’ve lost wages and benefits over the past few years are not sympathetic to their public sector union brothers’ complaints about having to pay 2 percent more for their health care. Construction union workers, truck drivers and electrical workers are facing higher out-of-pocket health care expenses, up to 15 percent pay cuts and lost vacation and pension benefits, while state employee unions are getting wage hikes and bemoaning a little more paid in.

At the same time, private sector employees are giving contract concessions, public sector members marched on our state Capitol last year demanding higher income taxes to pay for higher wages and generous benefits.

“There’s definitely a tension growing between the two different private and public sector union memberships,” Sherk said.

And it’s not as if construction union members have it so bad in Illinois.

Because of former Gov. Rod Blagojevich’s Executive Order 13 that Gov. Quinn has continued, only those construction companies that hire union workers and pay union wages can bid on state-funded building projects.

That leaves 80 percent of Illinois construction workers out in the cold when it comes to any of President Obama’s or Quinn’s shovel-ready projects, funneling all of those billions to the golden 20 percent of union-affiliated workers.

And without opening the bidding process to include both union and non-union companies, Illinois’ building projects cost 20 percent to 25 percent more because of higher labor costs and lack of competition.

All the while, the state faces bigger and bigger deficits, higher taxes and backbreaking debt, along with stale job growth and slow economic recovery.

And Wisconsin paves the way through, plowing up hardened ground, cultivating new jobs and a new economy, with union chains broken and competition and growth in its wake.

What will happen to Illinois while this modern-day freedom movement takes hold in Wisconsin?

We’re likely to be seeing more and more purple-shirted SEIU and green-shirted AFSCME union rallies in Springfield shouting the “Raise our taxes!” mantra, while business after business packs up and heads north to Wisconsin or east to Indiana.

It’s very much as Walker said in this weekend’s interview with Heritage.org:

“To balance our budget, we can’t turn to the path they’ve taken in the Land of Lincoln. Instead we’ve got to make the tough decisions. And I think people respect that.”

You can be sure, if they don’t respect it now, they soon will.

Busted: Scott Walker fell for Prankster posing as David Koch The conversation is at the link. I especially liked these exchanges:

Quote :

Walker: …I’ve got layoff notices ready…

Koch: Beautiful; beautiful. Gotta crush that union.

Quote :

Koch: We’ll back you any way we can. What we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this…[explains that planting troublemakers may not work.] My only fear would be if there’s a ruckus caused is that maybe the governor has to settle to solve all these problems…[something about '60s liberals.]…Let ‘em protest all they want…Sooner or later the media stops finding it interesting.

I read about the Koch's, aka, CROTCHES. From New York.

UrRight wrote:

I read about the Koch's, aka, CROTCHES. From New York.
Is there an honest, damn politician out there?

There certainly isn't one running the state of Wisconsin. Walker is bought and paid for by the Koch Bros,IMO. He also proved that he's about as smart as Sarah Palin by taking that call.

More insanity from the Wisconsin GOP.....

Quote :

GOP proposes rollback of mandatory disinfection for drinking waterRepublicans have introduced bills in each legislative house that would repeal a Department of Natural Resources rule that requires municipal governments to disinfect drinking water. The rule went into effect on Dec. 1 of last year, and it affects 12 percent of the state's municipal water supply systems. The other 88 percent of municipalities already disinfect their water.

"When I heard about this law being proposed, I thought, ‘You might as well legislate that the sun rises in the west," says Mark Borchardt, a leading infectious groundwater disease specialist and a staff member with the Environmental Protection Agency Advisory Board. He has done groundbreaking studies that showed that about 13 percent of acute gastro-intestinal illnesses in Wisconsin municipalities that don't disinfect their water supplies are tied to dirty drinking water.

State Rep. Brett Hulsey, D-Madison, a member of the Assembly Natural Resources Committee, dubbed the measure the "Poison Our Drinking Water Act."

"Of course it makes no sense, when Wisconsin had the largest drinking water outbreak in modern history," he says.

In 1993, more than 400,000 people were sickened and at least 104 died in Milwaukee when the protozoa cryptosporidium infected the water supply. That outbreak, however, happened despite the fact that the city was disinfecting its water. It has since increased the level of disinfectants used on the water supply, as well as stepping up water testing, according to DNR officials.

Change you can believe in......GOP style!
Koch brothers quietly open lobbying office in downtown Madison

Quote :

The billionaire brothers whose political action committee gave Gov. Scott Walker $43,000 and helped fund a multi-million dollar attack ad campaign against his opponent during the 2010 gubernatorial election have quietly opened a lobbying office in Madison just off the Capitol Square.

Charles and David Koch, who co-own Koch Industries Inc. and whose combined worth is estimated at $43 billion, have been recently tied with Walker's push to eliminate collective bargaining rights for public workers. The two have long backed conservative causes and groups including Americans for Prosperity, which organized the Tea Party rally Saturday in support of Walker's plan to strip public workers of collective bargaining rights and recently launched the Stand with Scott Walker website.

happy jack wrote:

If the entire swarm of middle and lower income citizens were starving to death and the only means to save them was to give some rich person a tax break, I believe that there are some people who would rather allow the starvation to continue than to see the evil rich man get his tax break.

*yawn*

happy jack wrote:

This constant class envy is pervasive, ridiculous, and counter-productive.

Class envy drives our economy. Sorry, that's capitalism. It's also more pervasive when so many are having trouble affording their healthcare, food, education, and housing, and especially when the services helping them keep their heads above water are being cut all across the board.

The problem we're having isn't just the unemployed. Most American's with jobs are having trouble getting by. Having a consumer base that can't afford anything is, lemme check... not good for business either. If workers were making more, not only could they buy more, but shit... you could tax them more too.

happy jack wrote:

Have you ever heard of a case of someone being employed by and deriving his entire annual income from someone who earns less money than he does?

And if I were talking about taxing people into the welfare system, you'd have a point. You and I both know I'm not talking about such a ridiculous exaggeration. You were bemoaning the teachers for wanting their third car at the expense of the taxpayers just a moment ago. But suggesting a few can do without their third yacht... dammit, that's over the line!

happy jack wrote:

All this proves is that Walker doesn't talk out of both sides of his mouth - what you see is what you get.

Exactly. So can we stop pretending this is some negotiation tactic? It's exactly as Scorpion said from the beginning: this is all about union busting and looking to make a name for himself, not the budget. Walker himself has said it now multiple times and he continues to behave as if that's his goal. I see no reason to believe otherwise.

Artie60438 wrote:

More insanity from the Wisconsin GOP.....

Quote :

GOP proposes rollback of mandatory disinfection for drinking water

'Course. The Koch brothers don't drink that stuff; they buy bottled water.