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 Happenings in Wisconsin

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/20/2011, 11:13 pm

chuckmo48 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:

So it's "ZOMG!! F**k government employees! They should be working in the private sector!!!" My bad.
Never said that. But why should government employees have more lucrative benefit packages than most private sector workers while forcing said private sector workers to finance said benefit packages?
You know you get what you pay for...if you have low entry salaries without benefits, no collective bargaining what type of teacher do you think will be drawn to that. I have already told my middle daughter and youngest son I will not pay for their college if they choose to go into teaching. Even though I taught for 34 years, I will not have my children spend upwards of $30,000-$40,000 to become a teacher that starts at $35,000, will have no rights, no guaranteed working conditions, get very little respect, and are expected to work miracles. It is not worth the aggravation!

Yes, it is often true that you get what you pay for. But if what you are getting totally sucks, as illustrated below, don't you think people would eventually get tired of paying for it?

www.nationalreview.com

The teachers’ union on strike? Wisconsin parents should go on strike against the teachers’ union. A friend e-mailed me to say that the graduation rate in Milwaukee public schools is 46 percent. The graduation rate for African-Americans in Milwaukee public schools is 34 percent. Shouldn’t somebody be protesting that?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/20/2011, 11:15 pm

happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:

So it's "ZOMG!! F**k government employees! They should be working in the private sector!!!" My bad.
Never said that. But why should government employees have more lucrative benefit packages than most private sector workers while forcing said private sector workers to finance said benefit packages?

I agree, up to a point. The fact of the matter is that the union has already agreed to benefit cuts, but the Governor seems intent on busting up the union.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

Quote :
Bell said unions agreed to cuts in health care and retirement benefits that could reduce take-home pay for many workers by about 8 percent, and it was time for the Republican governor to compromise.

The approach by the Governor just seems ideologically driven and counterproductive to me. It's not necessary to take away the union's bargaining rights in order to extract concessions. Does it really need to be "all or nothing?"



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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/20/2011, 11:32 pm

Scorpion wrote:

The approach by the Governor just seems ideologically driven and counterproductive to me. It's not necessary to take away the union's bargaining rights in order to extract concessions. Does it really need to be "all or nothing?"
No, it really doesn't need to be all or nothing. But I've seen firsthand that unions themselves often subscribe to the 'all or nothing' philosophy while negotiating, and I've little doubt that the governor has seen it firsthand, too. It's understandable that he might be playing some preemptive hardball.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/20/2011, 11:47 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

The approach by the Governor just seems ideologically driven and counterproductive to me. It's not necessary to take away the union's bargaining rights in order to extract concessions. Does it really need to be "all or nothing?"
No, it really doesn't need to be all or nothing. But I've seen firsthand that unions themselves often subscribe to the 'all or nothing' philosophy while negotiating, and I've little doubt that the governor has seen it firsthand, too. It's understandable that he might be playing some preemptive hardball.

Yeah, well "preemptive hardball" is fine if he is posturing for a compromise. But it sure doesn't look like that's what he and the Republican Legislature is doing. What he's basically saying is "it's my way or the highway." He has said repeatedly that he's not interested in any negotiations or deals of any kind. He continues to insist that the unions have to give up their collective bargaining rights, permanently.

At least there seems to be some movement from at least one of the Republican Legislators. I've read that they would a least consider adding a provision that would restore the unions' bargaining rights after 2 years. That might be the answer to the current stalemate. I'm sure that the unions wouldn't like it, but it's certainly preferable to what the Governor has been proposing....

Quote :
Sen. Jon Erpenbach, who remained at a Chicago hotel, said Democrats have reached out to Walker's administration but their phone calls have not been returned. He said it may take a coalition of moderate Republicans in the Senate to try to negotiate an end to the stalemate.

One of them, Sen. Dale Schultz, R-Richland Center, has proposed suspending collective bargaining rights temporarily to get through the state's two-year budget, but then restoring them in 2013
.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 12:14 am

Scorpion wrote:


Yeah, well "preemptive hardball" is fine if he is posturing for a compromise. But it sure doesn't look like that's what he and the Republican Legislature is doing. What he's basically saying is "it's my way or the highway." He has said repeatedly that he's not interested in any negotiations or deals of any kind. He continues to insist that the unions have to give up their collective bargaining rights, permanently.

At least there seems to be some movement from at least one of the Republican Legislators. I've read that they would a least consider adding a provision that would restore the unions' bargaining rights after 2 years. That might be the answer to the current stalemate. I'm sure that the unions wouldn't like it, but it's certainly preferable to what the Governor has been proposing....

Quote :
Sen. Jon Erpenbach, who remained at a Chicago hotel, said Democrats have reached out to Walker's administration but their phone calls have not been returned. He said it may take a coalition of moderate Republicans in the Senate to try to negotiate an end to the stalemate.

One of them, Sen. Dale Schultz, R-Richland Center, has proposed suspending collective bargaining rights temporarily to get through the state's two-year budget, but then restoring them in 2013
.

That's why it's called hardball. And, as you posted, there may be some compromise in the works. I think it's more a case of 'good cop, bad cop' on the part of the Republicans.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 6:34 am

Scorpion wrote:

Yeah, well "preemptive hardball" is fine if he is posturing for a compromise. But it sure doesn't look like that's what he and the Republican Legislature is doing. What he's basically saying is "it's my way or the highway." He has said repeatedly that he's not interested in any negotiations or deals of any kind. He continues to insist that the unions have to give up their collective bargaining rights, permanently.
He wants to exempt Police and Firefighters from giving up their collective bargaining. Those 2 groups usually vote Republican. Politics as usual!
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voter3



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 7:08 am

If they pass anything that cuts the unions they better follow it with an illegal immigration bill that sends back untaxed workers that are here illegally and a fine or jail for employers who hire them. I dont know about the rest of you but I am not interested in having someone who doesnt read or speak the english language building our houses.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 7:51 am

happy jack wrote:
The teachers’ union on strike? Wisconsin parents should go on strike against the teachers’ union. A friend e-mailed me to say that the graduation rate in Milwaukee public schools is 46 percent. The graduation rate for African-Americans in Milwaukee public schools is 34 percent. Shouldn’t somebody be protesting that?

More laughably disingenuous nonsense. If graduation rates were honestly an issue, then they'd be equally concerned, if not more so, about demonizing and demoralizing teachers, cutting scholarships, cutting funds, and increasing class sizes which would certainly worsen the situation. The fact that they're fighting so hard for such cuts demonstrates pretty clearly that this is nothing other than the usual anti-union nonsense we've come to know and loathe from the right.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 8:05 am

voter3 wrote:
...and a fine or jail for employers who hire them.

I think that's key to fixing the situation. American companies continue to advertise their jobs in Mexico, and a few have even set up "underground railroads" to smuggle workers over the border. They use INS to terrorize the workers while they're here, and every six months or so INS actually does show up to deport just a tiny percentage of the workers back home, but leaving the employers alone. And then the whole process just starts over again.

It's simple supply and demand. Companies demand cheap labor, and Mexico provides the supply. If massive fines and jail times dry up demand for illegals, they'll stop coming.

But you know who used to be the first line of defense against illegals back in the day? Unions.
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voter3



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 10:17 am

That is one hell of a tunnel to pop up in Chicago area. They are alive and well throughout the region. Hanging drywall siding and often electric and plumbing. Seems unfortunate they usually prey on fellow Hispanics. If they are not acting as unlicensed contractors they are working for someone who pays them under the table...not taxes and no insurance.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 11:18 am

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

Yeah, well "preemptive hardball" is fine if he is posturing for a compromise. But it sure doesn't look like that's what he and the Republican Legislature is doing. What he's basically saying is "it's my way or the highway." He has said repeatedly that he's not interested in any negotiations or deals of any kind. He continues to insist that the unions have to give up their collective bargaining rights, permanently.
He wants to exempt Police and Firefighters from giving up their collective bargaining. Those 2 groups usually vote Republican. Politics as usual!
Those two groups also place their lives on the line on a daily basis. I think they deserve a little more consideration than teachers, who may or may not come home with a paper cut.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 2:49 pm

Tea Party at work.....
Disgraced Former Tea Party Leader Calls On Right-Wing Activists To Pose As SEIU Organizers
Quote :
National tea party groups like Americans for Prosperity have been bussing conservative activists to Madison, WI to confront protesters there standing up to Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) union busting. But Tea Party Nation and Mark Williams, the disgraced former chairman of Tea Party Express, who was forced to resign after making offensive racial comments, are calling for a more radical approach. In an email alert to supporters sent last night, Tea Party Nation promotes Williams’ “great idea” to impersonate SEIU organizers at upcoming labor rallies in an attempt to embarrass and discredit the union.

Williams lays out a highly dishonest and fairly involved scheme to have “plants” sign up on the SEIU website to be organizers for an upcoming rally, dress up in SEIU shirts, and to then make outrageous comments to reporters covering the events in order to “make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is”:
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 4:05 pm

happy jack wrote:
That's why it's called hardball. And, as you posted, there may be some compromise in the works. I think it's more a case of 'good cop, bad cop' on the part of the Republicans.

No, I don't think so, Jack....

Neither side budging in Wisconsin union fight

Here's the latest round of quotes.

Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald...

Quote :
"You're not in negotiations. There is no negotiation," Fitzgerald said, cutting off one of the Democrats on the phone. "You need to get back to the floor of the Senate and offer any ideas you may have on final passage. That's where we're at. There is no negotiation."

Quote :
The Democratic senators taking part in the scheduling meeting urged Republicans to accept the offer made by the unions under which they would accept paying more for benefits as Walker wants but still retain their collective bargaining rights.

Another compromise offered by Republican Sen. Dale Schultz would remove collective bargaining rights just for two years. "It's time for all of us to move forward," said Democratic Sen. Dave Hansen of Green Bay over the phone to the Republicans.

Walker has rejected both offers, saying local governments and school districts can't be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process and need to have more flexibility to deal with up to $1 billion in cuts he will propose in his budget next week and into the future.

"It will never get to me because other than that one state senator, all the rest of the Republicans are firmly behind our proposal," Walker said in an MSNBC interview on Monday, calling it an unacceptable short-term fix.

It doesn't appear like there is any "good cop, bad strategy" here. This looks more and more like blatant union busting. If the budget was really the only issue, then I really don't see any reason for the Republicans to continue to insist that the Unions need to surrender their Collective Bargaining rights.

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 4:17 pm

Scorpion wrote:
If the budget was really the only issue, then I really don't see any reason for the Republicans to continue to insist that the Unions need to surrender their Collective Bargaining rights.

You capitalize the words 'Unions' and 'Collective Bargaining' the way some people capitalize the words 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'. To each his own deities, I reckon.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 4:25 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Tea Party at work.....
Disgraced Former Tea Party Leader Calls On Right-Wing Activists To Pose As SEIU Organizers
Quote :
National tea party groups like Americans for Prosperity have been bussing conservative activists to Madison, WI to confront protesters there standing up to Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) union busting. But Tea Party Nation and Mark Williams, the disgraced former chairman of Tea Party Express, who was forced to resign after making offensive racial comments, are calling for a more radical approach. In an email alert to supporters sent last night, Tea Party Nation promotes Williams’ “great idea” to impersonate SEIU organizers at upcoming labor rallies in an attempt to embarrass and discredit the union.

Williams lays out a highly dishonest and fairly involved scheme to have “plants” sign up on the SEIU website to be organizers for an upcoming rally, dress up in SEIU shirts, and to then make outrageous comments to reporters covering the events in order to “make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is”:
Shouldn't be all that difficult; 99% of the greed and goonishness is already in place.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 8:14 pm

Buried in this bill is the following,It's on page 24:
Quote :
16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

Walker's biggest donor in his campaign were the Koch brothers who just happen to own Koch Industries. I'm glad I don't live in Wisconsin.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/21/2011, 10:16 pm

happy jack wrote:
You capitalize the words 'Unions' and 'Collective Bargaining' the way some people capitalize the words 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'. To each his own deities, I reckon.

Seriously? He points out that yet another of your preconceived notion of this situation is completely wrong, and that's your rebuttal?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 1:05 am

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You capitalize the words 'Unions' and 'Collective Bargaining' the way some people capitalize the words 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'. To each his own deities, I reckon.

Seriously? He points out that yet another of your preconceived notion of this situation is completely wrong, and that's your rebuttal?
I find it hard to rebut opinions.
Facts?
Well, that's a different thing entirely.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 8:38 am

So how come it's high noon in Wisconsin?


The following link is from yesterday's Suntimes, and it clearly outlines what is going on with the gov. in Wisconsin.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/3925893-418/so-how-come-its-high-noon-in-wisconsin.html


So how come it’s high noon in Wisconsin?



By David Roeder Business Reporter/droeder@suntimes.com Feb 21, 2011 12:04PM


Related Stories

* Wisconsin Gov. Walker turns state into battleground for unions

Some questions and answers about the great budget showdown north of our border:

Q. What does Wisconsin’s governor want?

A. Republican Gov. Scott Walker wants most state workers to increase their pension contributions and to double contributions to their health insurance premiums. His plan would cut the average worker’s take-home pay by 8 percent. He also wants to undercut the bargaining rights of many unionized employees.

Q. Times are tough and everyone is taking cuts. Why are the unions so mad?

A. The wage cuts are one thing, but they regard the curbs on collective bargaining as a wholesale rollback of their rights. Walker’s bill would let unions bargain only on wages, not on benefits. And even wage increases would be limited to the Consumer Price Index without a voter referendum. Also, unions would have to collect their own dues and members wouldn’t be required to pay. Contracts would have a one-year limit, and to retain their right to represent the workers, each union would have to be recertified annually by a majority vote.

Q. What’s the savings to Wisconsin?

A. About $300 million over its two-year budget cycle, but that’s part of a $3.6 billion deficit.

Q. Why can’t the legislature vote on this?

A. The plan has strong support from Republicans, who control both chambers. But in the Senate, 14 Democrats fled the proceedings, denying the GOP the three-fifths quorum it needs to pass the bill and bringing all business to a halt.

Q. How long can this go on?

A. For a while. Walker dispatched the state police to look for the Democrats, but there are doubts about whether they can arrest the lawmakers, and everybody agrees Walker can’t have them dragged back over the state line. Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach told the Associated Press from a Chicago hotel that his colleagues are “scattered” outside of Wisconsin and that they won’t come back until Walker compromises.

Q. Any chance of a compromise?

A. Walker repeated Sunday that he has no intention of giving in. He has said that without his measure, some 6,000 state workers and almost as many local government workers will have to be laid off. Police and firefighters are exempt from any changes in collective bargaining.

Q. Why is Walker concentrating on such a divisive issue?

A. Walker has said bargaining with the unions takes too long and that the cumulative costs of their deals have to be reduced now. His critics counter that he has had public employee unions in his sights for a long time.

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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 8:43 am

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/3929312-418/wisconsin-gov.-walker-turns-state-into-battleground-for-unions

Click on this link if you want to read how Gov. Walker turns the state of Wisconsin into a battleground for unions.

Yesterday's edition.

I think it's pretty stupid for the Democrats to run and hide out of state. Spineless.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 9:04 am

Today's update as to why Gov. Walker from Wisconsin "Won't back down!"

http://www.suntimes.com/3942461-417/wisconsin-gov.-scott-walker-wont-back-down

MADISON, Wis. — No resolution appeared imminent Monday to the stalemate over union rights in Wisconsin, leaving Senate Republicans resigned to forge ahead with less-controversial business such as tax breaks for dairy farmers and commending the Green Bay Packers on winning the Super Bowl.

As the standoff entered its second week, none of the major players offered any signs of backing down in a high-stakes game of political chicken that has riveted the nation and led to ongoing public protests that drew a high of 68,000 people on Saturday. Thousands more braved cold winds and temperatures in the 20s to march again on Monday, waving signs that said “Stop the attack on Wisconsin families” and “solidarity.”

The 14 Senate Democrats who skipped town Thursday to indefinitely delay a vote on Republican Gov. Scott Walker’s bill stripping most collective bargaining rights from nearly all public employees remained missing in action for a fifth day.

Walker refused to back down and again called on the Democrats to return and vote on the bill.

“For those 14 Senate Democrats, you’ve had your time,” he said. “It’s time for them to come back and participate in democracy.”

The Democrats have been far from in hiding. They’ve done numerous television interviews and two of them even participated, via telephone from an undisclosed location, in a brief meeting to schedule the Senate’s session today.

“You have shut down the people’s government, and that is not acceptable,” Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said to them during the meeting.

Both the Senate and Assembly planned to be in session today to take up the bill, but at least one of the missing Democrats needed to show up for a vote to be taken in the Senate. Assembly Democrats planned to offer dozens of amendments that could push a vote into Wednesday or later.

Although today’s list of items, including the resolution honoring the Packers, is largely bipartisan, Fitzgerald hinted that he might try to push more controversial ones later, even if the Democrats aren’t back. Among the possibilities is a vote on the question of whether voters should be required to show identification at the polls.

Democratic Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller said Democrats were waiting for Walker to compromise.

“It’s right in front of the governor,” Miller said. “He just needs to pick it up and allow us to move on. This is a no-brainer.”

Under one deal, the unions said they would accept paying more for benefits as Walker wants but still retain their collective bargaining rights. Another compromise offered by Republican Sen. Dale Schultz would remove collective bargaining rights just for two years.

Walker has repeatedly rejected both offers, saying local governments and school districts can’t be hamstrung by the often lengthy collective bargaining process and need to have more flexibility to deal with up to $1 billion in cuts he will propose in his budget next week and into the future.

As he spoke under heavy guard at a late afternoon news conference inside his conference room, thousands of protesters could be heard through the doors blowing whistles, banging on drums and chanting “Scott Walker has got to go!”

The emergency plan Walker wants the Legislature to pass would address this year’s $137 million shortfall and start dealing with the $3.6 billion hole expected by mid-2013. The benefits concessions would amount to $30 million this year, but the largest savings Walker proposed comes from refinancing debt to save $165 million.


___________________________________________________________________________

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms, why he would want to take "Collective Bargaining" away, when this is a "RIGHT"?
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 9:10 am

Here's one comment that struck a chord with me.


Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says that collective bargaining impedes progress in education. There are 5 states that do not have collective bargaining for teachers. Here is where they ranked in 2010 in regards to SAT/ACT scores: Virginia 44th, Texas 47th, Georgia 48th, North Carolina 49th and South Carolina 50th. Wisconsin Ranked 2nd in 2010

********************************************************************************
ME:

I understand and know what collective bargaining is. I just don't understand why a governor can or how he can remove it from the unions. Especially for teachers.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 9:12 am

Does this have to do with unions contributing to Democrats?

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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 9:16 am

happy jack wrote:
I find it hard to rebut opinions.

We can tell. You'd have an easier time if you actually based yours on facts, except...

happy jack wrote:
Facts? Well, that's a different thing entirely.

And that explains everything. The conservative worldview in a nutshell: facts are open for debate. Only by ignoring the facts can you get "death panels gonna kill gramma", Sarah Palin, global warming skepticism, "Obama insults half of the country", creationists, birthers, "America is a Christian Nation", "they hate us for our freedom", "Obama's a Muslim and Hitler too", Climategate, "Iraq has WMDs", the "coming Islamic caliphate" and whatever other unfounded, hilarious nonsense conservatives/Republicans have believed over the years.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Happenings in Wisconsin    2/22/2011, 9:46 am

Unsurprisingly, this isn't the first time the governor has tried such a stunt:



Classy. He's a partisan hack, pure and simple. Loved the bit at the end. These workers are fighting for the ability not to get screwed by the government in the future, something conservative rallied behind when the Tea Party was doing not so long ago, but now they're just way to eager to throw these working families under the bus simply because they might vote the wrong way.
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