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 Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy

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Heretic
Artie60438
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 5:56 am

This is a story of something that I would expect to come out of China or North Korea but not the United States. In Missouri, a woman from Guatemala was arrested at her place of employment. Since she was working under an assumed name,she was charged with identity theft and convicted. At the time of her arrest, her six month old son was living with her. The child was put in foster care. Here is where the story becomes heartbreaking. While she was in jail, the judge ruled she didn't have the means to support the child,terminated her parental rights and put him up for adoption.This is a outrage.When we allow our legal system to steal the children of illegal immigrants,we have no right to protest the human right's violations of other countries.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 8:06 am

No sympathy here.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 8:53 am

None here, either.
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 9:28 am

It seems to me that some posters don't believe that illegal immigrants are entitled to any human rights whatsoever, not even the right to raise their own children. IMO, this is a form of state sanctioned kidnapping and the judge who made the ruling should be recalled from the bench. In another thread, Scorpion posted a link showing an estimate of the amount of taxes that illegal immigrants pay through payroll taxes. I find it ironic that illegals are actually funding the government that uses it's legal authority to confiscate their children and place them up for adoption.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 9:34 am

sparks wrote:
It seems to me that some posters don't believe that illegal immigrants are entitled to any human rights whatsoever, not even the right to raise their own children. IMO, this is a form of state sanctioned kidnapping and the judge who made the ruling should be recalled from the bench. In another thread, Scorpion posted a link showing an estimate of the amount of taxes that illegal immigrants pay through payroll taxes. I find it ironic that illegals are actually funding the government that uses it's legal authority to confiscate their children and place them up for adoption.
You mean like Socialism? Better get used to it, ace! It is no different than the Social Programs that the clown you put in office has begun.
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Artie60438




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 9:46 am

LoisLane wrote:

You mean like Socialism? Better get used to it, ace! It is no different than the Social Programs that the clown you put in office has begun.

So I guess you don't take advantage of any of these?..

The VA Hospital
The Post Office
Medicare
SSI
unemployment
Parks (national and city)
Beaches (national and city)
Libraries
Road, Streets, Highways, byways, Freeways
Schools
Street lamps and or any lighting paid by the Gov't (city included)
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 9:47 am

LoisLane wrote:
sparks wrote:
It seems to me that some posters don't believe that illegal immigrants are entitled to any human rights whatsoever, not even the right to raise their own children. IMO, this is a form of state sanctioned kidnapping and the judge who made the ruling should be recalled from the bench. In another thread, Scorpion posted a link showing an estimate of the amount of taxes that illegal immigrants pay through payroll taxes. I find it ironic that illegals are actually funding the government that uses it's legal authority to confiscate their children and place them up for adoption.
You mean like Socialism? Better get used to it, ace! It is no different than the Social Programs that the clown you put in office has begun.
I can only hope that one of the women whose child has been taken by our government writes a diary like Anne Frank did. Exactly how do you make the connection between state sponsored kidnapping and socialism?
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 9:54 am

sparks wrote:
LoisLane wrote:
sparks wrote:
It seems to me that some posters don't believe that illegal immigrants are entitled to any human rights whatsoever, not even the right to raise their own children. IMO, this is a form of state sanctioned kidnapping and the judge who made the ruling should be recalled from the bench. In another thread, Scorpion posted a link showing an estimate of the amount of taxes that illegal immigrants pay through payroll taxes. I find it ironic that illegals are actually funding the government that uses it's legal authority to confiscate their children and place them up for adoption.
You mean like Socialism? Better get used to it, ace! It is no different than the Social Programs that the clown you put in office has begun.
I can only hope that one of the women whose child has been taken by our government writes a diary like Anne Frank did. Exactly how do you make the connection between state sponsored kidnapping and socialism?
I don't look through "rose coloured glasses" like you Sheeple!
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Heretic

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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 9:57 am

sparks wrote:
This is a story of something that I would expect to come out of China or North Korea but not the United States. In Missouri, a woman from Guatemala was arrested at her place of employment. Since she was working under an assumed name,she was charged with identity theft and convicted. At the time of her arrest, her six month old son was living with her. The child was put in foster care. Here is where the story becomes heartbreaking. While she was in jail, the judge ruled she didn't have the means to support the child,terminated her parental rights and put him up for adoption.This is a outrage.When we allow our legal system to steal the children of illegal immigrants,we have no right to protest the human right's violations of other countries.

I don't think it's quite kidnapping... Identity theft is a billion dollar industry that completely ruins families, so this woman gets no sympathy here, at all. The child wasn't taken into custody until a year and a half after her incarceration, at which point the mother was going to spend another year in jail and then end up deported. That's simply not a viable caretaker. I'm guessing what happened is that the child was born here and is a citizen of the United States, which I would think rules out deportation to their home country. With no relatives in the country to release the child to (which is what would happen had she been a citizen), obviously finding the child a stable foster/adoptive home would be the priority. They even waited a year and a half, most likely pending the outcome of his mother's case, to see if she'd be willing to resume custody...

It's a rough situation, but one of his mother's making. I don't think it's quite as nefarious as it sounds.
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 10:58 am

Heretic wrote:
sparks wrote:
This is a story of something that I would expect to come out of China or North Korea but not the United States. In Missouri, a woman from Guatemala was arrested at her place of employment. Since she was working under an assumed name,she was charged with identity theft and convicted. At the time of her arrest, her six month old son was living with her. The child was put in foster care. Here is where the story becomes heartbreaking. While she was in jail, the judge ruled she didn't have the means to support the child,terminated her parental rights and put him up for adoption.This is a outrage.When we allow our legal system to steal the children of illegal immigrants,we have no right to protest the human right's violations of other countries.

I don't think it's quite kidnapping... Identity theft is a billion dollar industry that completely ruins families, so this woman gets no sympathy here, at all.
Sparks wrote:
I think a distinction needs to be made in between identity fraud to commit financial fraud and indentity theft to gain employment so that a person can earn an income. Identity theft to gain employment causes no harm that I am aware of.In fact, it could actually be a benefit because it increases earning which increases social security benefits at retirement.
The child wasn't taken into custody until a year and a half after her incarceration, at which point the mother was going to spend another year in jail and then end up deported. That's simply not a viable caretaker. I'm guessing what happened is that the child was born here and is a citizen of the United States, which I would think rules out deportation to their home country.
Sparks wrote:
I think that is right. A society that values human rights should not decree that having US citizenship should supercede parental rights.
With no relatives in the country to release the child to (which is what would happen had she been a citizen), obviously finding the child a stable foster/adoptive home would be the priority.
Sparks wrote:
The child did have relatives in the US where he stayed until they could not longer care for him because they were also illegals and had no access to our social safety net
They even waited a year and a half, most likely pending the outcome of his mother's case, to see if she'd be willing to resume custody...

It's a rough situation, but one of his mother's making. I don't think it's quite as nefarious as it sounds.
The fact is that if the child had not been born in this country, he would have been subject to deportation along with his mother. So, the sole factor would caused his mother to lose her rights as a parent is the fact she had the misfortune to give birth on US soil.Here is another clip from the link I posted. I believe the courts will turn over this adoption proceeding because the mother was denied due process.
Ms. Bail’s lawyer, John de Leon, of Miami, said his client had not been informed about the adoption proceedings in her native Spanish, and had no real legal representation until it was too late.
Immigration authorities quickly released several workers who had small children. But authorities said Ms. Bail was ineligible to be freed because she was charged with using false identification. Such charges were part of a crackdown by the Bush administration, which punished illegal immigrants by forcing them to serve out sentences before being deported.
My parents were poor, and they never gave me to anyone,” Ms. Bail recalled. “I was not going to give my son to anyone either.”

An adoption petition arrived at the jail a few weeks later. Ms. Bail, who cannot read Spanish, much less English, said she had a cellmate from Mexico translate. With the help of a guard and an English-speaking Guatemalan visitor, Ms. Bail wrote a response to the court.

“I do not want my son to be adopted by anyone,” she scrawled on a sheet of notebook paper on Oct. 28, 2007
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 11:06 am

sparks wrote:
Heretic wrote:
sparks wrote:
This is a story of something that I would expect to come out of China or North Korea but not the United States. In Missouri, a woman from Guatemala was arrested at her place of employment. Since she was working under an assumed name,she was charged with identity theft and convicted. At the time of her arrest, her six month old son was living with her. The child was put in foster care. Here is where the story becomes heartbreaking. While she was in jail, the judge ruled she didn't have the means to support the child,terminated her parental rights and put him up for adoption.This is a outrage.When we allow our legal system to steal the children of illegal immigrants,we have no right to protest the human right's violations of other countries.

I don't think it's quite kidnapping... Identity theft is a billion dollar industry that completely ruins families, so this woman gets no sympathy here, at all.
Sparks wrote:
I think a distinction needs to be made in between identity fraud to commit financial fraud and indentity theft to gain employment so that a person can earn an income. Identity theft to gain employment causes no harm that I am aware of.In fact, it could actually be a benefit because it increases earning which increases social security benefits at retirement.
The child wasn't taken into custody until a year and a half after her incarceration, at which point the mother was going to spend another year in jail and then end up deported. That's simply not a viable caretaker. I'm guessing what happened is that the child was born here and is a citizen of the United States, which I would think rules out deportation to their home country.
Sparks wrote:
I think that is right. A society that values human rights should not decree that having US citizenship should supercede parental rights.
With no relatives in the country to release the child to (which is what would happen had she been a citizen), obviously finding the child a stable foster/adoptive home would be the priority.
Sparks wrote:
The child did have relatives in the US where he stayed until they could not longer care for him because they were also illegals and had no access to our social safety net
They even waited a year and a half, most likely pending the outcome of his mother's case, to see if she'd be willing to resume custody...

It's a rough situation, but one of his mother's making. I don't think it's quite as nefarious as it sounds.
The fact is that if the child had not been born in this country, he would have been subject to deportation along with his mother. So, the sole factor would caused his mother to lose her rights as a parent is the fact she had the misfortune to give birth on US soil.Here is another clip from the link I posted. I believe the courts will turn over this adoption proceeding because the mother was denied due process.
Ms. Bail’s lawyer, John de Leon, of Miami, said his client had not been informed about the adoption proceedings in her native Spanish, and had no real legal representation until it was too late.
Immigration authorities quickly released several workers who had small children. But authorities said Ms. Bail was ineligible to be freed because she was charged with using false identification. Such charges were part of a crackdown by the Bush administration, which punished illegal immigrants by forcing them to serve out sentences before being deported.
My parents were poor, and they never gave me to anyone,” Ms. Bail recalled. “I was not going to give my son to anyone either.”

An adoption petition arrived at the jail a few weeks later. Ms. Bail, who cannot read Spanish, much less English, said she had a cellmate from Mexico translate. With the help of a guard and an English-speaking Guatemalan visitor, Ms. Bail wrote a response to the court.

“I do not want my son to be adopted by anyone,” she scrawled on a sheet of notebook paper on Oct. 28, 2007
She can't read English or Spanish? She did pretty good with SOME language in order to establish an identity theft crime. Time we stopped coddling these people. They know the consequence if they are caught. Deal with it.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:00 pm

sparks wrote:
It seems to me that some posters don't believe that illegal immigrants are entitled to any human rights whatsoever, not even the right to raise their own children. IMO, this is a form of state sanctioned kidnapping and the judge who made the ruling should be recalled from the bench. In another thread, Scorpion posted a link showing an estimate of the amount of taxes that illegal immigrants pay through payroll taxes. I find it ironic that illegals are actually funding the government that uses it's legal authority to confiscate their children and place them up for adoption.

Here's an idea if she wants to raise her son, she can do it legally in her own country. It's her own fault this has happened.
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paul87920

paul87920


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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:09 pm

Yeah, sorry. No sympathy here either. The same thing would happen to a single mother who was a citizen that got arrested. Kid would be taken from her too.
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sparks




Posts : 2214

Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:19 pm

paul87920 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. No sympathy here either. The same thing would happen to a single mother who was a citizen that got arrested. Kid would be taken from her too.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Parental rights are not terminated because a mother is arrested.If necessary, the state arranges foster care while the mother is in custody. Once she is released and is able to assume responsibilty for her child, she regains custody of her child. Normally, the mother also has visitation of her child while she is incarcerated.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:22 pm

sparks wrote:
paul87920 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. No sympathy here either. The same thing would happen to a single mother who was a citizen that got arrested. Kid would be taken from her too.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Parental rights are not terminated because a mother is arrested.If necessary, the state arranges foster care while the mother is in custody. Once she is released and is able to assume responsibilty for her child, she regains custody of her child. Normally, the mother also has visitation of her child while she is incarcerated.
como? como?
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Heretic

Heretic


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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:44 pm

sparks wrote:
Identity theft to gain employment causes no harm that I am aware of.In fact, it could actually be a benefit because it increases earning which increases social security benefits at retirement.

Without know the specifics of her case, that's nothing but speculation. We don't know whose identity she stole, to what extent, and what effects it had on the victim. She can't read, so I think we can reasonably assume she had help setting it up. This may have been one small part of a larger theft ring.

sparks wrote:
I think that is right. A society that values human rights should not decree that having US citizenship should supercede parental rights.

I don't think they're saying that at all, rather I think they're saying that the legal mechanism to deport a US citizen child of an illegal back to their home country doesn't exist. The court system simply had no other recourse than to handle Carlos' case like they would any other case involving an American child who's parents were incarcerated. That's a far cry from what you'd see in China or North Korea.

sparks wrote:
The child did have relatives in the US where he stayed until they could not longer care for him because they were also illegals and had no access to our social safety net

And according to them, he was too much to handle. They willfully resigned custody to the other couple.

sparks wrote:
The fact is that if the child had not been born in this country, he would have been subject to deportation along with his mother. So, the sole factor would caused his mother to lose her rights as a parent is the fact she had the misfortune to give birth on US soil.

No, not the sole factor. Her ignorance of American law helped contribute, as well as the inability to speak English and read/write English and Spanish.

sparks wrote:
I believe the courts will turn over this adoption proceeding because the mother was denied due process.

We'll have to see.

Quote :
Mr. Hensley, the lawyer for Carlos’s adoptive parents, said he had sent a letter to Ms. Bail to tell her that his clients were caring for her son, as did the court, but both letters were returned unopened. “We afforded her more due process than most people get who speak English,” Mr. Hensley said.
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Heretic

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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:52 pm

sparks wrote:
I'm going to disagree with you here. Parental rights are not terminated because a mother is arrested.If necessary, the state arranges foster care while the mother is in custody. Once she is released and is able to assume responsibilty for her child, she regains custody of her child. Normally, the mother also has visitation of her child while she is incarcerated.

Not always. The termination of parental rights isn't an automatic thing; a petition usually starts the process. Carlos' foster parents petitioned the court for custody and the court granted it. That's similar to how it works in Indiana; petitions have to come from the caregiver (state agency, foster parents, etc) and it will be dismissed if they can demonstrate that termination will not be in the best interests of the child. They can grant the petition based on a conviction of a specific charge, but in Indiana that's only for the more severe felonies, especially those involving children as victims, and a petition still has to come from the guardian.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 12:55 pm

I'm just waiting to see the support and sympathy towards the person who's identity was stolen. I think it is sad that a certain poster tries to once again justify illegal behavior instead of condemning it. When will people realize that illegal is illegal is illegal and there are consequences for those actions.

Thank the good Lord this isn't China- I mean you want to argue for human rights? How about arguing against the female infanticide that goes on in that country!
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 1:03 pm

Yeah- poor mama- Rolling Eyes

..."The lawyer for Carlos’s adoptive parents, Joseph L. Hensley, said his clients had waited more than a year for Ms. Bail to demonstrate her commitment to Carlos, but the judge found that she had made no attempt to contact the baby or send financial support for him while she was incarcerated. "...

..."When Ms. Bail went to jail, Carlos, then 6 months old, was sent to stay with two aunts who remembered him as having a voracious appetite and crying constantly. But they also said he had a severe rash and had not received all of his vaccinations."...

..."“Her lifestyle, that of smuggling herself into the country illegally and committing crimes in this country, is not a lifestyle that can provide stability for a child,” the judge wrote in his decision. “A child cannot be educated in this way, always in hiding or on the run.”...

Smart judge. This kid will probably have the lifestyle mama invisioned after all. Too bad she screwed it up for herself by becoming a criminal.
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 1:35 pm

Heretic wrote:

sparks wrote:
The fact is that if the child had not been born in this country, he would have been subject to deportation along with his mother. So, the sole factor would caused his mother to lose her rights as a parent is the fact she had the misfortune to give birth on US soil.

No, not the sole factor. Her ignorance of American law helped contribute, as well as the inability to speak English and read/write English and Spanish.
Sparks wrote:
Not being able to read or write English or Spanish has no bearing on her parental rights. Just as the court must appoint counsel and interpreters for defendants who are accused of breaking the law, the court also had a responsibilty to insure the mother had adequate legal counsel before terminating her parental rights.
sparks wrote:
I believe the courts will turn over this adoption proceeding because the mother was denied due process.

We'll have to see.

Quote :
Mr. Hensley, the lawyer for Carlos’s adoptive parents, said he had sent a letter to Ms. Bail to tell her that his clients were caring for her son, as did the court, but both letters were returned unopened. “We afforded her more due process than most people get who speak English,” Mr. Hensley said.
Sparks wrote:
Since the mother was in state custody at the time, the judge had a responsibility to see why the letters were never even opened. The prison would have become aware that the woman was illiterate during the intake process,which means they should have supplied an interpreter to read the legal documents sent to that prisoner about the legal hearing.Her rights were denied because the prison chose not to supply an interpreter to this woman. The fact is the prison never made an attempt to notify the mother of the hearing.
Whenever arguments like this come up, I always refer make to our constitution.I have never been able to find the part where it says these rights apply to everyone but illegal immigrants.BTW, I really liked like your use of the word nefarious. You can be quite the wordsmith.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Heretic

Heretic


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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 1:46 pm

sparks wrote:
Whenever arguments like this come up, I always refer make to our constitution.I have never been able to find the part where it says these rights apply to everyone but illegal immigrants.

Come on, sparks... Where were her rights violated? She lost custody while in prison? Happens to citizens all the time. Her illegal status doesn't magically make that a rights violation.

sparks wrote:
BTW, I really liked like your use of the word nefarious. You can be quite the wordsmith.

Calm down, buddy. You were the one who likened this to "China and North Korea". I simply stated I disagreed.
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 2:20 pm

Heretic wrote:
sparks wrote:
Whenever arguments like this come up, I always refer make to our constitution.I have never been able to find the part where it says these rights apply to everyone but illegal immigrants.

Come on, sparks... Where were her rights violated? She lost custody while in prison? Happens to citizens all the time. Her illegal status doesn't magically make that a rights violation.
Sparks wrote:
No one is disputing that parents can lose custody of their children while in prison. Her rights were violated when the court gave her no chance to defend herself in the adoption hearing.

sparks wrote:
BTW, I really liked like your use of the word nefarious. You can be quite the wordsmith.

Calm down, buddy.
Sparks wrote:
I am calm,that was a compliment.That's why I used the word like.
You were the one who likened this to "China and North Korea". I simply stated I disagreed.

I think the comparision to human rights violations of China and North Korea is valid in this case. Many mothers would die to save their children. I'm sure in her mind, what our government has done by taking her child from her is just as evil as the things the things totalitarian governments do to others. If this case stands,she will never see her son again.
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Heretic

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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 2:52 pm

sparks wrote:
No one is disputing that parents can lose custody of their children while in prison. Her rights were violated when the court gave her no chance to defend herself in the adoption hearing.

She would have needed to defend herself during the termination hearing; once her rights are terminated, she's no longer the child's guardian and therefore no legal bearing whatsoever on the adoption. And I think they did give her a chance, but it was impeded by her ignorance of American law and procedure and her inability to read/speak English and read Spanish. Ignorance and an inability to communicate are not legal defenses here anymore than they would be for Americans abroad.

sparks wrote:
I am calm,that was a compliment.That's why I used the word like.

Then I apologize. I mistook that as sarcasm.

sparks wrote:
I think the comparision to human rights violations of China and North Korea is valid in this case. Many mothers would die to save their children. I'm sure in her mind, what our government has done by taking her child from her is just as evil as the things the things totalitarian governments do to others. If this case stands,she will never see her son again.

I wonder if he even remembers her at this point. He's spent most of his formative years with the foster family. It's a hairy situation all around and forcibly removing him what he now knows as home and returning him to his mother once she's released just because she's his mother just may not be in his best interest.
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paul87920

paul87920


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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/24/2009, 4:06 pm

sparks wrote:
paul87920 wrote:
Yeah, sorry. No sympathy here either. The same thing would happen to a single mother who was a citizen that got arrested. Kid would be taken from her too.
I'm going to disagree with you here. Parental rights are not terminated because a mother is arrested.If necessary, the state arranges foster care while the mother is in custody. Once she is released and is able to assume responsibilty for her child, she regains custody of her child. Normally, the mother also has visitation of her child while she is incarcerated.

This woman is not ready to assume responsibility for her child.
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sparks




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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty4/25/2009, 6:10 am

Heretic wrote:
sparks wrote:
No one is disputing that parents can lose custody of their children while in prison. Her rights were violated when the court gave her no chance to defend herself in the adoption hearing.

She would have needed to defend herself during the termination hearing; once her rights are terminated, she's no longer the child's guardian and therefore no legal bearing whatsoever on the adoption. And I think they did give her a chance, but it was impeded by her ignorance of American law and procedure and her inability to read/speak English and read Spanish. Ignorance and an inability to communicate are not legal defenses here anymore than they would be for Americans abroad.
There are two different issues here. You are correct that ignorance of the law cannot be used as a legal defense. But, ignorance of the law is not the issue here, it is the fact that the defendant doesn't understand the legal proceedings to deprive her of her child,so she cannot present a defense to protect her rights as a parent. Here is a section of Missouri state law about rights of defendants in legal hearings. I also included another link to Washington state law because the same principle is
clearly illustrated.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4760000803.HTM
Quote :
Appointment of interpreters and translators, when--waiver, when--oath required.
476.803. 1. The courts shall appoint qualified interpreters and translators in all legal proceedings in which the non-English speaking person is a party or a witness.

2. Any non-English speaking party or any party who intends to call a non-English speaking witness shall provide such prior notice to the court of the need for an interpreter or translator as may be required by court rules.

3. The appointing authority shall appoint a qualified interpreter to assist the non-English speaking parent, guardian, or custodian of a juvenile brought before the court.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=2.43&full=true
Quote :
It is hereby declared to be the policy of this state to secure the rights, constitutional or otherwise, of persons who, because of a non-English-speaking cultural background, are unable to readily understand or communicate in the English language, and who consequently cannot be fully protected in legal proceedings unless qualified interpreters are available to assist them.
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Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy   Mo. judge declares illegal mom unfit, takes her little boy Empty

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