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 What Illegal Abortion Looks Like

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Heretic

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PostSubject: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/14/2012, 9:27 am

happy jack wrote:
I happen to think that it would be a good thing if the Catholic Church supported contraception and would allow it as part of their insurance coverage. If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion, then banning one of the best methods available to prevent abortions seems to me to be short-sighted and counter-productive.

Hmm...

Quote :
What Illegal Abortion Looks Like

Many are linking to this story around the blogosphere and I encourage everyone to read it. In it, a Ob/Gyn describes her emergency care of a woman who arrived in her ED in hemorrhagic shock from a botched illegal abortion.

. . .

This is a great story because it illustrates two points. One, the war on abortion by the right wing is futile. We know abortion is more common where it is illegal and cases like these are more common. Banning abortion does not save lives. It results in more abortions, and more lives lost. Worse, in countries with strict bans even treatment of ectopic pregnancy is forbidden where there is still a beating heart detected by ultrasound. Doctors in these countries can literally go to jail for saving a woman's life, all for the sake of a non-viable embryo that will kill the mother. The hypocrisy of calling this position pro-life is demonstrated by cold hard data. More women die. More fetuses are aborted.

. . .

Hemorrhagic shock is one of those situations where the adrenaline flows but if you remember your training and follow some basic rules of resuscitation it's highly amenable to treatment. We can always put blood back in, but you have to find the bleeding and arrest it quickly to save the life. Dr. Gunter knew this, and her expertise allowed her to save the life of an unfortunate young woman that would have never been in that position if contraceptives were easily available and if her abortion had been safe and legal. If we are honestly concerned about the preservation of life, we must divorce ourselves from emotion over this issue and accept the data that clearly shows restricting abortion does not prevent it, only increased access to contraception will lower abortion rates.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/14/2012, 5:20 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
I happen to think that it would be a good thing if the Catholic Church supported contraception and would allow it as part of their insurance coverage. If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion, then banning one of the best methods available to prevent abortions seems to me to be short-sighted and counter-productive.

Hmm...

Quote :
What Illegal Abortion Looks Like

Many are linking to this story around the blogosphere and I encourage everyone to read it. In it, a Ob/Gyn describes her emergency care of a woman who arrived in her ED in hemorrhagic shock from a botched illegal abortion.

. . .

This is a great story because it illustrates two points. One, the war on abortion by the right wing is futile. We know abortion is more common where it is illegal and cases like these are more common. Banning abortion does not save lives. It results in more abortions, and more lives lost. Worse, in countries with strict bans even treatment of ectopic pregnancy is forbidden where there is still a beating heart detected by ultrasound. Doctors in these countries can literally go to jail for saving a woman's life, all for the sake of a non-viable embryo that will kill the mother. The hypocrisy of calling this position pro-life is demonstrated by cold hard data. More women die. More fetuses are aborted.

. . .

Hemorrhagic shock is one of those situations where the adrenaline flows but if you remember your training and follow some basic rules of resuscitation it's highly amenable to treatment. We can always put blood back in, but you have to find the bleeding and arrest it quickly to save the life. Dr. Gunter knew this, and her expertise allowed her to save the life of an unfortunate young woman that would have never been in that position if contraceptives were easily available and if her abortion had been safe and legal. If we are honestly concerned about the preservation of life, we must divorce ourselves from emotion over this issue and accept the data that clearly shows restricting abortion does not prevent it, only increased access to contraception will lower abortion rates.
You've lost me.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, as it relates to my quote.
Could you clarify?
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/14/2012, 10:45 pm

Quote :
If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion...

Quote :
We know abortion is more common where it is illegal...

Keep thinking about it. It'll come to you.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/15/2012, 1:12 am

Heretic wrote:
Quote :
If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion...

Quote :
We know abortion is more common where it is illegal...

Keep thinking about it. It'll come to you.
It would probably come to me a lot sooner were you to make some sort of point.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/15/2012, 8:47 am

I was posting the article anyway, but I added your quote because of the obvious (to most) parallel with the article.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/15/2012, 3:40 pm

Heretic wrote:
I was posting the article anyway, but I added your quote because of the obvious (to most) parallel with the article.
The only parallel I can see is that the author and I both use the word 'abortion'.
Can you clarify, or is this like some sort of quiz show?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/17/2012, 6:33 pm

happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Quote :
If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion...

Quote :
We know abortion is more common where it is illegal...

Keep thinking about it. It'll come to you.
[b]It would probably come to me a lot sooner were you to make some sort of point.
Perhaps you could draw him a picture,Heretic. I suggest you use crayons.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/18/2012, 5:46 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Quote :
If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion...

Quote :
We know abortion is more common where it is illegal...

Keep thinking about it. It'll come to you.
[b]It would probably come to me a lot sooner were you to make some sort of point.
Perhaps you could draw him a picture,Heretic. I suggest you use crayons.
Since you are so fond of demonstrating how, ahem, 'bright' Laughing you are, perhaps you can explain to this benighted poster exactly what Heretic means.
Can you do that?
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/18/2012, 9:09 pm

Abortion should safe, legal, and rare.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/19/2012, 9:59 am

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Quote :
If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion...

Quote :
We know abortion is more common where it is illegal...

Keep thinking about it. It'll come to you.
[b]It would probably come to me a lot sooner were you to make some sort of point.
Perhaps you could draw him a picture,Heretic. I suggest you use crayons.
Since you are so fond of demonstrating how, ahem, 'bright' Laughing you are, perhaps you can explain to this benighted poster exactly what Heretic means.
Can you do that?
What I think he means is that if the church truly wants to reduce abortions they would be in favor of legalization and would actively promote the use of contraceptives instead of trying to limit them.

Heretic?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/19/2012, 9:20 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Quote :
If the Church’s goal is to reduce the prevalence of abortion...

Quote :
We know abortion is more common where it is illegal...

Keep thinking about it. It'll come to you.
[b]It would probably come to me a lot sooner were you to make some sort of point.
Perhaps you could draw him a picture,Heretic. I suggest you use crayons.
Since you are so fond of demonstrating how, ahem, 'bright' Laughing you are, perhaps you can explain to this benighted poster exactly what Heretic means.
Can you do that?
What I think he means is that if the church truly wants to reduce abortions they would be in favor of legalization and would actively promote the use of contraceptives instead of trying to limit them.

Heretic?
The church doesn't want to reduce the number of abortions - the church wants no abortions, so I don't think they would be pushing for legalization any time soon. But as I said earlier, I really think they shoot themselves in the foot by remaining so uncompromising on the issue of contraception. How many more abortions would be sought out if no contraception were available?
At any rate, their stance on contraception probably makes little or no difference in the actual availability and usage of contraception. I think most people ignore them on that issue, not to mention the statistic cited that 98% of Catholic women use contraception in some form.
But I have no right to tell the church to bend to my will as far as their doctrine is concerned, and the government has even less of a right to do that.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/19/2012, 9:33 pm

KarenT wrote:
Abortion should safe, legal, and rare.
If it is safe and legal, why do you think it should be rare?
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/20/2012, 3:19 am

happy jack wrote:
If it is safe and legal, why do you think it should be rare?

'Cause it is. It's an acknowledgement of the only realistic solution in this unfortunate scenario: mitigation rather than prohibition.

happy jack wrote:
But I have no right to tell the church to bend to my will as far as their doctrine is concerned...

Except that you're not, and neither is the government. No one is forcing any Catholic to use birth control against religious doctrine. What the government is preventing is the forcing of Catholic religious doctrines (rather selectively, to boot, I might add. They don't seem to give a shit about child rape or accessibility of Viagra) on their employees, regardless of their faith. That's what the first amendment is about, isn't it? This situation is neither unique nor controversial, as I pointed out at the beginning of this thread.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/20/2012, 11:46 am

You can babble on all you want about child rape and Viagra, but it changes not a single thing about the 1st amendment aspect of this issue.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ….

With this compromise, the government is in no way allowing an ‘establishment of religion’, nor is it forcing religious doctrine on anyone, nor is it preventing anyone from using contraception. What was being attempted prior to the compromise, however, was most certainly a case of the government ‘prohibiting the free exercise thereof’.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/20/2012, 4:58 pm

I think abortion should be rare because in a perfect world people would only have sex with partners they want to raise children with. In a less-than-perfect world, people would use reliable easily available contraception.

Do you think abortion should not be rare - would you like to see more of them?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/20/2012, 5:38 pm

KarenT wrote:

Do you think abortion should not be rare - would you like to see more of them?
Of course not.
It just always puzzles me when people who think abortion is OK say that it should be rare.
I happen to think pizza and beer are OK, but I don't want either one of those to be rare.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/21/2012, 6:08 pm

happy jack wrote:
KarenT wrote:

Do you think abortion should not be rare - would you like to see more of them?
Of course not.
It just always puzzles me when people who think abortion is OK say that it should be rare.
I happen to think pizza and beer are OK, but I don't want either one of those to be rare.

It's actually pretty easy to understand... because "Pro-choice" does not mean the same thing as "Pro-abortion." As I've said many times, I've never talked to anyone who is "pro-abortion."

One of the main reasons that people who are "pro choice" also favor the use of contraceptives is because contraception prevents the need for an abortion.

As far as your "pizza and beer" analogy goes, well, I assume that you like pizza and beer, and that's why you don't want them to be rare. But it doesn't follow that people who support a woman's right to choose like abortions.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: What Illegal Abortion Looks Like   2/21/2012, 6:36 pm

Thanks, Scorp.
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