School Sued Over a Song - "In God We Still Trust"

sparks wrote:

The separation of church and state is crucial to maintaining a free country where each citizen has the freedom to pursue his own beliefs without government interference.

Lest they continue to dumb down our education system, like in Texas. Or attempt to force atheists teaching science out of their jobs, like in Washington.

Yeah... It's Christianity that's under attack...

Heretic wrote:

sparks wrote:

The separation of church and state is crucial to maintaining a free country where each citizen has the freedom to pursue his own beliefs without government interference.

Lest they continue to dumb down our education system, like in Texas. Or attempt to force atheists teaching science out of their jobs, like in Washington.

Yeah... It's Christianity that's under attack...

Thanks for the links. Pretty disturbing. I just can't fathom why anyone would want us to denounce science, for any reason. In essence, these people might as well be advocating a return to the Dark Ages.

Heretic wrote:

sparks wrote:

The separation of church and state is crucial to maintaining a free country where each citizen has the freedom to pursue his own beliefs without government interference.

Lest they continue to dumb down our education system, like in Texas. Or attempt to force atheists teaching science out of their jobs, like in Washington.

Yeah... It's Christianity that's under attack...

Texas is a really scary state. One of the reasons Bush won (sic) in 2000 was he made the totally unfounded claims about improving public schools in Texas while he was Governor. Here is a very good Here is a very good link that talks about how the public schools in Texas faired under Bush. As far as I'm concerned,once he became President,he attempted to do the same thing on a national scale.

Texas ranks dead last among all 50 states in teacher salaries (check out how poorly Texas does in other categories)
Money that could have gone into raising teacher salaries went into tax cuts for the rich.
The high school dropout rates in Texas are 30% overall
The high school dropout rate in Texas is 50% among minorities
Missing students and other mirages in Texas enrollment statistics profoundly affected both reported dropout statistics and test scores.
The gains on TAAS and the unbelievable decreases in dropouts during the 1990s are more illusory than real.
At the start of every school year, school begins with literally hundreds of classrooms without teachers
Governor Bush has appointed a teacher certification board that, instead of working on improving the standards for the teaching profession and improving teacher quality, has decided instead to allow people who have poor credentials to enter into the teaching profession

What does this have to do with a song?

Cuz Christians and Bush are really, really bad people...

Ohhmama wrote:

Cuz Christians and Bush are really, really bad people...

Well I don't believe Christians are bad people. As for Bush... well I have yet to come across a politician that I do believe is a good person. I do not think an us against them mentality is good for children though.

Ohhmama wrote:

Cuz Christians and Bush are really, really bad people...

Just the Christians that want to slam their beliefs down people's throats who choose not to believe and the ones who try to disrupt scientific investigation whenever they can.

Artie60438 wrote:

Ohhmama wrote:

Cuz Christians and Bush are really, really bad people...

Just the Christians that want to slam their beliefs down people's throats who choose not to believe and the ones who try to disrupt scientific investigation whenever they can.

Or how about those who refuse to allow the mere conversation of creationism in the schools as a theory even though the evolution from monkeys theory is allowed? Or the ones who are so intolerant of allowing Christians to have their beliefs but are considered evil for not having beliefs in homosexuality, abortions, etc. etc.

See this goes both ways. Intolerance is on both sides.

BTW- Just because I am interested-

Artie could you tell me of a specific incidence where a Christian was forcing religion down your throat? Did someone put a gun to your head or knife to your throat and force you to accept Christ as your savior?

Ohhmama wrote:

BTW- Just because I am interested-

Artie could you tell me of a specific incidence where a Christian was forcing religion down your throat? Did someone put a gun to your head or knife to your throat and force you to accept Christ as your savior?

Here's a local example....

First Baptist steps in to keep shelter open

Quote :

Rick Calinski, director of Hammond's Planning and Development Department, said First Baptist is operating the shelter at its own cost. The city still owns the shelter property.

Resident William "Brian" Riley lived at the shelter for nearly two months and while he was there, he said he was appalled by the changes the church made. Riley has since moved out the shelter and stays in a home in Hammond.

Riley, who is an atheist, said residents are required to attend church services in order to remain in the shelter. Services are held each morning after breakfast and after dinner and residents must attend one of the daily services. If you don't have a job or appointment, you must attend both, Riley said.

Shelter Director George Ranft said residents must attend one of the sessions in order to eat in the facility. Mandatory sessions are Wednesday night Bible Study, a Friday night Reformers Unanimous meeting and Sunday church services. Reformers Unanimous is a support group for recovering addicts. If residents don't attend First Baptist on Sunday, proof of attendance, such as a bulletin, from another church is required, Riley said.

Riley said he doesn't have a problem with religion, but takes issue when people attempt to force it upon him.

"That infringes on my right as a human being," Riley said.

Wolfe counters Riley's claim that church is mandatory.

"They don't have to do that, but they have to be involved in some sort of organized service," Wolfe said. "It can be our church, or another church, it could be AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). We're not picking their religion for them."

Residents said three people have been asked to leave the shelter this year for either missing church or leaving service early. Others have left on their own volition because they can't deal with the rules, Riley said.

So because I asked specifically how it was forced down your throat, I am assuming that you are one of the residents at this shelter forced to attend services?? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am wrong, please give me a specific example of how it's affect you. Thanks.
_________

So Mr. Riley did what he had every right to do, leave the "shelter" if he didn't want to stay and attend services, big whoop. Since the shelter is running at its own cost, they have every right to mandate their own rules. Those people who don't want to abide also have every right to find a new shelter to stay at.

Quote :

Wolfe counters Riley's claim that church is mandatory.

"They don't have to do that, but they have to be involved in some sort of organized service," Wolfe said. "It can be our church, or another church, it could be AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). We're not picking their religion for them."

So the guy doesn't even have to attend church, it could be AA, or other type of service- gosh forbid they attend something that could perhaps better their lives instead of living in a shelter.

Ohhmama wrote:

So because I asked specifically how it was forced down your throat, I am assuming that you are one of the residents at this shelter forced to attend services?? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am wrong, please give me a specific example of how it's affect you. Thanks.

I never alluded to myself personally. I said "Just the Christians that want to slam their beliefs down people's throats"

Quote :

So Mr. Riley did what he had every right to do, leave the "shelter" if he didn't want to stay and attend services, big whoop. Since the shelter is running at its own cost, they have every right to mandate their own rules. Those people who don't want to abide also have every right to find a new shelter to stay at.

So in essance,it's either pray with us or go hungry and sleep on the street.

Quote :

Jesus' Golden Rule is, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." We should not say or do anything unless we can answer "Yes" to the question, "Would I want that said or done to me?" Neither should we fail to do the good things we would expect of others.

I doubt that any Christian would be too happy if they were forced to pray to Allah in order to receive a social service that they desperately needed.

Quote :

Wolfe counters Riley's claim that church is mandatory.

"They don't have to do that, but they have to be involved in some sort of organized service," Wolfe said. "It can be our church, or another church, it could be AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). We're not picking their religion for them."

Quote :

So the guy doesn't even have to attend church, it could be AA, or other type of service- gosh forbid they attend something that could perhaps better their lives instead of living in a shelter.

AA is a religious cult based on christianity.

Ohhmama wrote:

Or how about those who refuse to allow the mere conversation of creationism in the schools as a theory even though the evolution from monkeys theory is allowed?

Because the mere existence of a "theory" doesn't magically validate it. In order for it to be an actual scientific theory, it has to be backed by evidence (like evolution). If we dumb down the definition of a scientific theory so as to allow such baseless ideas as creationism, even astrology becomes a valid (as the proponents of creationism themselves pointed out in the Dover trial). See the difference?

Ohhmama wrote:

Or the ones who are so intolerant of allowing Christians to have their beliefs but are considered evil for not having beliefs in homosexuality, abortions, etc. etc.

They're certainly allowed their beliefs; no one is denying them that. However, they are not allowed to trample over individual freedoms because of them.

Ohhmama wrote:

Artie could you tell me of a specific incidence where a Christian was forcing religion down your throat? Did someone put a gun to your head or knife to your throat and force you to accept Christ as your savior?

Christians are the only ones that wake me up early at my home to "preach the good word" and then subsequently harangue and threaten me with infinite and endless torture when they discover I'm a happy and content non-Christian. And while it hasn't happened to me personally, there's the proselytizing at school, the need to dumb down our science curriculum in order to adhere to the scientific standards of a 2,000 year old book. And let's not forget that historically Christians have opposed every major civil rights issue - gay marriages, interracial marriage, women's rights, and the end to slavery. And as far as the conversion under threat of death, we thankfully haven't seen that since the Inquisition. Wait... I take that back. Conversion or death was a choice they gave to a lot of Native Americans after the discover of the New World. So while much hasn't happened to me personally, that certainly doesn't mean it hasn't or isn't happening to others.

Mind you this isn't all Christians, either, but those I am referring to certainly have a significant presence.

Just thought that I'd add a quote from Obama regarding Religion and Politics, during a speech he gave in 2006. Here is a link to the transcript and video of that entire speech.

Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Barack Obama wrote:

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I strongly urge anyone who is interested in this subject to take a few minutes and watch the speech or look at the transcript.

Scorpion wrote:

Just thought that I'd add a quote from Obama regarding Religion and Politics, during a speech he gave in 2006. Here is a link to the transcript and video of that entire speech.

Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Barack Obama wrote:

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I strongly urge anyone who is interested in this subject to take a few minutes and watch the speech or look at the transcript.

It is hypocritical, when we consider who or whom his pastor was for the past 20 years. Remember him? "God damn America." Obama's religious beliefs mean nothing.

LoisLane wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Just thought that I'd add a quote from Obama regarding Religion and Politics, during a speech he gave in 2006. Here is a link to the transcript and video of that entire speech.

Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Barack Obama wrote:

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I strongly urge anyone who is interested in this subject to take a few minutes and watch the speech or look at the transcript.

It is hypocritical, when we consider who or whom his pastor was for the past 20 years. Remember him? "God damn America." Obama's religious beliefs mean nothing.

Wow. I guess this means that you rebuffed my suggestion to read the transcript and watch the video.

Yeah, it's far more important to blast Obama for the words of his former pastor than to actually do any critical analysis of the content of a speech that is relevant to the subject matter at hand. It's a lot easier too... doesn't require you to think at all.

LoisLane wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Just thought that I'd add a quote from Obama regarding Religion and Politics, during a speech he gave in 2006. Here is a link to the transcript and video of that entire speech.

Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Barack Obama wrote:

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I strongly urge anyone who is interested in this subject to take a few minutes and watch the speech or look at the transcript.

It is hypocritical, when we consider who or whom his pastor was for the past 20 years. Remember him? "God damn America." Obama's religious beliefs mean nothing.

I'm just curious, does that mean anyone who sat and listened into homosexual Ted Haggard for 20 years, fraudulent Jerry Falwell for 20 years, or former Hitler youth Pope Benedict for 20 years also have religious beliefs that "mean nothing"?

paul87920 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Just thought that I'd add a quote from Obama regarding Religion and Politics, during a speech he gave in 2006. Here is a link to the transcript and video of that entire speech.

Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Barack Obama wrote:

This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I strongly urge anyone who is interested in this subject to take a few minutes and watch the speech or look at the transcript.

It is hypocritical, when we consider who or whom his pastor was for the past 20 years. Remember him? "God damn America." Obama's religious beliefs mean nothing.

I'm just curious, does that mean anyone who sat and listened into homosexual Ted Haggard for 20 years, fraudulent Jerry Falwell for 20 years, or former Hitler youth Pope Benedict for 20 years also have religious beliefs that "mean nothing"?

I believe I said Obama? What part of the above don't you understand?

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

I'm just curious, does that mean anyone who sat and listened into homosexual Ted Haggard for 20 years, fraudulent Jerry Falwell for 20 years, or former Hitler youth Pope Benedict for 20 years also have religious beliefs that "mean nothing"?

I believe I said Obama? What part of the above don't you understand?

Funny... I don't remember saying that I didn't understand what you said. I just thought I'd pick your brain a little further...

That's it. That's all.

paul87920 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

I'm just curious, does that mean anyone who sat and listened into homosexual Ted Haggard for 20 years, fraudulent Jerry Falwell for 20 years, or former Hitler youth Pope Benedict for 20 years also have religious beliefs that "mean nothing"?

I believe I said Obama? What part of the above don't you understand?

Funny... I don't remember saying that I didn't understand what you said. I just thought I'd pick your brain a little further...

That's it. That's all.

More Messiah side steppin'.

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

I'm just curious, does that mean anyone who sat and listened into homosexual Ted Haggard for 20 years, fraudulent Jerry Falwell for 20 years, or former Hitler youth Pope Benedict for 20 years also have religious beliefs that "mean nothing"?

I believe I said Obama? What part of the above don't you understand?

Funny... I don't remember saying that I didn't understand what you said. I just thought I'd pick your brain a little further...

That's it. That's all.

More Messiah side steppin'.

Well to be 100% honest with you. Obama's religious beliefs do mean nothing. As do yours, and any other person who makes the active choice to believe in some puppet master in the sky...

paul87920 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

I'm just curious, does that mean anyone who sat and listened into homosexual Ted Haggard for 20 years, fraudulent Jerry Falwell for 20 years, or former Hitler youth Pope Benedict for 20 years also have religious beliefs that "mean nothing"?

I believe I said Obama? What part of the above don't you understand?

Funny... I don't remember saying that I didn't understand what you said. I just thought I'd pick your brain a little further...

That's it. That's all.

More Messiah side steppin'.

Well to be 100% honest with you. Obama's religious beliefs do mean nothing. As do yours, and any other person who makes the active choice to believe in some puppet master in the sky...

Did I say I was a religious person? No, I didn't. And I would appreciate it if you didn't bundle me with those who are.

sparks wrote:

Heretic wrote:

sparks wrote:

The separation of church and state is crucial to maintaining a free country where each citizen has the freedom to pursue his own beliefs without government interference.

Lest they continue to dumb down our education system, like in Texas. Or attempt to force atheists teaching science out of their jobs, like in Washington.

Yeah... It's Christianity that's under attack...

Texas is a really scary state. One of the reasons Bush won (sic) in 2000 was he made the totally unfounded claims about improving public schools in Texas while he was Governor. Here is a very good Here is a very good link that talks about how the public schools in Texas faired under Bush. As far as I'm concerned,once he became President,he attempted to do the same thing on a national scale.

Texas ranks dead last among all 50 states in teacher salaries (check out how poorly Texas does in other categories)
Money that could have gone into raising teacher salaries went into tax cuts for the rich.
The high school dropout rates in Texas are 30% overall
The high school dropout rate in Texas is 50% among minorities
Missing students and other mirages in Texas enrollment statistics profoundly affected both reported dropout statistics and test scores.
The gains on TAAS and the unbelievable decreases in dropouts during the 1990s are more illusory than real.
At the start of every school year, school begins with literally hundreds of classrooms without teachers
Governor Bush has appointed a teacher certification board that, instead of working on improving the standards for the teaching profession and improving teacher quality, has decided instead to allow people who have poor credentials to enter into the teaching profession

Watch what you say, a person can teach in Indiana without a degree. It wasn't too long ago, a lay person could draw his own house plans, and build from them. If you are touting Texas as being a substandard state, you best look at the statistics in your own backyard.

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

Well to be 100% honest with you. Obama's religious beliefs do mean nothing. As do yours, and any other person who makes the active choice to believe in some puppet master in the sky...

Did I say I was a religious person? No, I didn't. And I would appreciate it if you didn't bundle me with those who are.

Religious or not... frankly that's irrelevant. And what you would appreciate is of no importance to me.

paul87920 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

paul87920 wrote:

Well to be 100% honest with you. Obama's religious beliefs do mean nothing. As do yours, and any other person who makes the active choice to believe in some puppet master in the sky...

Did I say I was a religious person? No, I didn't. And I would appreciate it if you didn't bundle me with those who are.

Religious or not... frankly that's irrelevant. And what you would appreciate is of no importance to me.

Damn, this thread has been amusing. IMO, it's the most entertaining thread I've seen on a National Forum since the heyday of the Times board.