School Sued Over a Song - "In God We Still Trust"

http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/School-sued-after-students-learned-religious-song/ZXyI9pF_HUGBrxP0qKtStQ.cspx

JACKSONVILLE, FL (AP) -- Parents are suing the St. Johns County School Board saying a teacher made their children learn a religious-themed song for an end-of-the-year program.

The lawsuit, filed last week in federal court, says "In God We Still Trust," interferes with the parents' right to raise children according to their own beliefs.

The song was cut before the lawsuit was filed after another parent complained. But the lawsuit says they are still entitled to damages because their children were required to learn the song. They are seeking to bar the district from the "religious instruction" the song represents.

School Board attorney David Marsey says the issue differs from school prayer because public school choirs historically have been permitted to sing religious songs.

I don't know if this is the same song but here is Diamond Rio's rendition of a song by that name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiYgpPB1kwU

Here is a link to those villainous lyrics: http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/diamond-rio/in-god-we-still-trust-17164.html

Oh yea, like that's gonna force someone to turn to Christianity. If "In God We Trust" is on our money how can it be wrong to say it in a song down at the school house? I think the word "God" is vague enough to apply to most religions and even declared atheists have been known to use the word God on occasion.

If this is to be an example of attempting to bring religion into a classroom then I object in turn to references of Mother Nature as an attempted promulgation of religions such as Wicca and others that promote Mother Earth as a religious icon.

Mirage wrote:

Here is a link to those villainous lyrics: http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/diamond-rio/in-god-we-still-trust-17164.html

Oh yea, like that's gonna force someone to turn to Christianity. If "In God We Trust" is on our money how can it be wrong to say it in a song down at the school house? I think the word "God" is vague enough to apply to most religions and even declared atheists have been known to use the word God on occasion.

Here are the lyrics:

Quote :

You place your hand on His Bible, when you swear to tell the Truth
His name is on our greatest Monuments, and all our money too,
And when we Pledge allegiance, there's no doubt where we stand,
There is no separation, we're one Nation under Him.

Chorus:
In God We Still Trust
Here in America
He's the one we turn to every time
The goin' gets rough
He is the source of all our Strength
The One who watches over us
Here in America
In God We Still Trust

Now there are those among us, who want to push Him out,
And erase His name from everything, this country's all about,
From the Schoolhouse to the Courthouse, they're Silencing His Word,
Now it's time for all Believers, to make our Voices heard.

In God We Still Trust,
Here in America
He's the one we turn to every time
The goin' gets rough
He is the source of all our Strength
The One who watches over us
Here in America
In God We Still Trust

Here in America
Here in America
Here in America,

In God We Still Trust
Here in America,

In God We Still Trust
Here in America

There are lines in this song that openly attack Atheists. Personally, I have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance or "In God We Trust" on our money, but I'm not an atheist. An atheist would argue that this song not only attacks their beliefs but forces their children to learn and sing a song that attacks their beliefs. That's probably the issue, and in my opinion, it's a valid one.

Mirage wrote:

If this is to be an example of attempting to bring religion into a classroom then I object in turn to references of Mother Nature as an attempted promulgation of religions such as Wicca and others that promote Mother Earth as a religious icon.

Yeah, well let us know when you find a school that requires that children learn a Wiccan song that attacks the beliefs of others and we'll discuss it.

There are lines in this song that openly attack Atheists.

OK which lines?

Yeah, well let us know when you find a school that requires that children learn a Wiccan song that attacks the beliefs of others and we'll discuss it.

By your reasoning anything that promotes Mother Earth, doesn't have to be a song.

Mirage wrote:

There are lines in this song that openly attack Atheists.

OK which lines?

Quote :

Now there are those among us, who want to push Him out,
And erase His name from everything, this country's all about,
From the Schoolhouse to the Courthouse, they're Silencing His Word,
Now it's time for all Believers, to make our Voices heard.

Pretty blatant, if you ask me.

Mirage wrote:

Yeah, well let us know when you find a school that requires that children learn a Wiccan song that attacks the beliefs of others and we'll discuss it.

By your reasoning anything that promotes Mother Earth, doesn't have to be a song.

No, by my reasoning a school that promoted "Mother Earth" while attacking the beliefs of other Religions would cause a major uproar.

Now there are those among us, who want to push Him out,
And erase His name from everything, this country's all about,
From the Schoolhouse to the Courthouse, they're Silencing His Word,
Now it's time for all Believers, to make our Voices heard.

What's false about the statement? And I don't see the word/ name Atheist anywhere in it.

Mirage wrote:

Now there are those among us, who want to push Him out,
And erase His name from everything, this country's all about,
From the Schoolhouse to the Courthouse, they're Silencing His Word,
Now it's time for all Believers, to make our Voices heard.

What's false about the statement? And I don't see the word/ name Atheist anywhere in it.

It doesn't matter whether the statements are "false" or not, that's not the issue being discussed.

Tell me Mirage. Who are those "among us" who want to do. and have done, the things referenced in this stanza? If you said "the Atheists" then you're correct. The school had better settle this suit, because they're going to lose.

Who are those "among us" who want to do. and have done, the things referenced in this stanza? Answer: Socialist traitors.

I wish I knew why some want to turn us into an atheist nation when there already is one just 90 miles south in Cuba. We see how well that is working out.

Mirage wrote:

Who are those "among us" who want to do. and have done, the things referenced in this stanza? Answer: Socialist traitors.

I wish I knew why some want to turn us into an atheist nation when there already is one just 90 miles south in Cuba. We see how well that is working out.

How is trying to prevent a public school from inflicting religious dogma on an Atheist an attempt to turn our country into an "Atheist nation"? Yellow Pages online lists 8 pages of Christian schools K-12 in Jacksonville.

Mirage wrote:

Who are those "among us" who want to do. and have done, the things referenced in this stanza? Answer: Socialist traitors.

I wish I knew why some want to turn us into an atheist nation when there already is one just 90 miles south in Cuba. We see how well that is working out.

Socialist traitors? Have another one on me, Mirage. I'll buy, but you have to promise to stop POI.

Nobody wants to turn us into an "atheist nation." The atheists just want to be free to teach their kids their beliefs, without interference from the State. It's a taxpayer funded public school and they expect their kids to be able to attend without being exposed to religious indoctrination. It's just wrong to force their children to embrace religious beliefs that conflict with what they've taught their children. As I pointed out, this song goes a step further and actually attacks the atheist parents. There's no reason for that kind of stuff to be going in in the public school system.

Nobody wants to turn us into an "atheist nation."

Yea right.

It's just wrong to force their children to embrace religious beliefs that conflict with what they've taught their children

Are you kidding? We do it all the time! Even teaching right & wrong to a point is a reflection of religious values. Otherwise how do you justify monogamy, making pot illegal, or any number of other mainly moral/ religious driven rules. If In God We Trust is valid to put on US currency then I maintain there's nothing wrong with this song.

We will never agree that this country needs to be free of Judeo-Christian values and beliefs to cater to the devout atheist or socialist point of view, which is really the point of the song. I think every grade school kid should have to learn this song so they can appreciate what is wrong with American today.

Mirage wrote:

Nobody wants to turn us into an "atheist nation."

Yea right.

It's just wrong to force their children to embrace religious beliefs that conflict with what they've taught their children

Are you kidding? We do it all the time! Even teaching right & wrong to a point is a reflection of religious values. Otherwise how do you justify monogamy, making pot illegal, or any number of other mainly moral/ religious driven rules.

Nonsense. You don't need religion to teach right and wrong. A strong ethical and moral code is all that's needed. No religious faith is required.

Mirage wrote:

We will never agree that this country needs to be free of Judeo-Christian values and beliefs to cater to the devout atheist or socialist point of view, which is really the point of the song.

Nobody is advocating that "this country needs to free of Judeo-Christian values." Nor is there a movement to "cater to the devout atheist or socialist point of view." That's just some paranoid delusion.

BTW - It's simply incorrect to say that if somebody is an Atheist, then they are socialists.

Mirage wrote:

I think every grade school kid should have to learn this song so they can appreciate what is wrong with American today.

Yeah, well personally, seeing as this is America and all, I would prefer that the public schools remain free from religious persecution.

To be honest, it sounds to me like you would be happier if our country was a theocracy.

Nor is there a movement to "cater to the devout atheist or socialist point of view." That's just some paranoid delusion.

Actually I believe it's called the ACLU.

Yeah, well personally, seeing as this is America and all, I would prefer that the public schools remain free from religious persecution.

Wow! Then you must favor the song.


Nonsense. You don't need religion to teach right and wrong. A strong ethical and moral code is all that's needed. No religious faith is required.


How? How do you know what's right and wrong outside of a religious view of some sort? How do you even know when it's ok to take a life? Keeping in mind that in some cultures or beliefs that would be never. Or as they say in India "Holy cow!"

Mirage wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Nonsense. You don't need religion to teach right and wrong. A strong ethical and moral code is all that's needed. No religious faith is required.

How? How do you know what's right and wrong outside of a religious view of some sort? How do you even know when it's ok to take a life? Keeping in mind that in some cultures or beliefs that would be never. Or as they say in India "Holy cow!"

Many of the original settlers of this country came here to escape religious persecution. The constitution has provisions in it which separate church and state as a way to prevent religious persecution. I agree that the particular song cited in this thread directly attacks atheists. If you are in favor of freedom of religion, you have to support everyone's right to their own beliefs, even if they are different than your own.

The constitution has provisions in it which separate church and state as a way to prevent religious persecution.

That is being threatened. I think it was Connecticut where the legislature wants to tell churches how to operate their business. And actually the Constitution is to protect the church from the sate, not the state from the church. But don't you advocate taxing churches? Don't you favor reducing tax benefits in charitable donations? I don't feel any charitable donations should be taxed, be it for religion or the local dog shelter or a food bank.


Many of the original settlers of this country came here to escape religious persecution.

Not the way you are suggesting. For one thing, they were all Christians weren't they? So to use that as justification for imposing a ban on God in public seems a bit disingenuous.

If you are in favor of freedom of religion, you have to support everyone's right to their own beliefs, even if they are different than your own.

Actually there is a difference between freedom to worship without unjust persecution and an all out freedom of religion. For example I cannot support human sacrifice as some rural Central and South American cultures have and would oppose efforts to glorify the practice.

Mirage wrote:

Nonsense. You don't need religion to teach right and wrong. A strong ethical and moral code is all that's needed. No religious faith is required.


How? How do you know what's right and wrong outside of a religious view of some sort?

Please tell me that you're joking. Do you honestly believe that a person has no way of telling the difference between right and wrong without Religion?

Haven't you ever taken a Philosophy course? Or a course on Ethics? Or Metaphysics?

Do you honestly believe that a person has no way of telling the difference between right and wrong without Religion?

Pretty much true. Yep I've taken such courses and if anything they prove my point.

I guess it all comes down to whether you think man is innately good or bad, and from there the influence of religion on the individual. To borrow a Christian phrase we are all sinners saved by grace.

In fact I would have though at least self preservation would have been enough to establish that murder is universally wrong until I took world culture courses and discovered the beliefs of some cannibal cultures.

Can't even claim a universal belief against incest really since whatever they believe there seems to be quite a few people participating in it.

So I am hard pressed to find any universal concept that has not been tempered by religion. The irony is that Western culture is already influenced by the concepts of right and wrong from when Christianity had dominance, but that seems to be slipping away more and more.

Good lord they even have same sex couples trying to call themselves a marriage nowadays. Everybody knows that is just plain wrong even if they favor a right to it. It isn't natural, which is why the gay community fights so hard for acceptance of the practice. But it will never be natural or right and few cultures have ever attempted to legitimize gay marriage. You could perhaps call it the 3rd universal truth that is no longer so universal anymore.

Gotta love those tolerant liberal types.

Guess they can't see the forest for the green sunglasses they refuse to remove to see what really is there.

Mirage wrote:

Guess they can't see the forest for the green sunglasses they refuse to remove to see what really is there.

Superstitious dogma?

Artie60438 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

Guess they can't see the forest for the green sunglasses they refuse to remove to see what really is there.

Superstitious dogma?

Not only is it superstitious dogma, but it is also a driving force for so many atrocities. Islamic Jihadists, Aztec human sacrifice, Roman persecution of the Christians, Salem witch hunts, the Inquisition, Mountain Meadows Massacre, Human sacrifice to the goddess Kali, Burmese Buddhist human sacrifice, the Israeli-Palestine conflict, Catholic pedophilia, Baptist protesting of soldiers funerals, Amish incest, 9/11, the Manson Family, Jonestown, need I go on?

Please do!

Mirage wrote:

Do you honestly believe that a person has no way of telling the difference between right and wrong without Religion?

Pretty much true. Yep I've taken such courses and if anything they prove my point.

Really? What courses did you take? I'm guessing one intro course on the History of Philosophy, because that's about the only way possible that you could maintain that "they prove your point."

Mirage wrote:

So I am hard pressed to find any universal concept that has not been tempered by religion.

Yeah, well that's because you haven't looked.

Mirage wrote:

The irony is that Western culture is already influenced by the concepts of right and wrong from when Christianity had dominance, but that seems to be slipping away more and more.

What's "ironic" about your contention? It doesn't really matter, because it's a false statement in any case. The fact of the matter is that nearly 80% of adult Americans are Christians.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Atheists, on the other hand, amount to less than 2% of the country. Yet religious zealots like yourself wrap themselves in the flag and feel it's just dandy to attack them and their children because they don't subscribe to Christian dogma. The mistreatment of others because they don't agree with your religious beliefs is the essence of religious persecution, and that's exactly why this "song" is so wrong headed.

Mirage wrote:

Please do!

My point is that I don't need a religion to determine those things are wrong. Religion itself is so imperfect that I certainly do not need it to determine what is and what isn't morally correct.

paul87920 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

Please do!

My point is that I don't need a religion to determine those things are wrong. Religion itself is so imperfect that I certainly do not need it to determine what is and what isn't morally correct.

But since Christian values are inherent in the American culture how can you really know that to be a fact? If you lived in the Amazon jungle and living in an isolated culture that believes cannibalism is an accepted practice then in all likelihood would simply agree with it.

I was around in the early 1960s and saw types of racism first hand but what troubled me was some of the excuses used to justify overt racism even right here in good old Lake County, Indiana. At the corner of Indy & Chicago in East Chicago there was a dime store dinner counter that unofficially still practiced segregated dining. So while not necessarily a religious conviction a true religious belief would have seen how this practice was wrong. In fact I believe it was actually the religious community that finally ended racism in America, not the secular society. While you might argue that racism still exists today it is no comparison to 1960 and most of the racism claims you hear about anymore are just demands for extortion. But if you want to look at it in secular terms who could say the treatment of people of black skin color was very fair between WWII and 1962? Notice how the Civil Rights movement used a lot of religious tunes and it's main leader was a preacher?

The usual test applies... Replace the Christian references to one of any other faith and watch their cries of religious freedom quickly and angrily turning to those of oppression.

Mirage wrote:

But since Christian values are inherent in the American culture how can you really know that to be a fact?

Such as? I find little inherent to Christianity that cannot be found elsewhere.