Gun Control

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

If those guns and the high capacity clips that are used with them,which you also support,were not available the odds are that some of those children and teachers might still be alive today.

[b]Highly, highly, highly, highly doubtful.
How much resistance would a terrified and unarmed teacher and terrified 6 and 7 year-olds have been able to muster against a crazy and determined adult using even 10 round clips, which can be dumped and reinserted within seconds (a point we’ve gone over earlier in this thread, by the way, and nothing has changed since.)?
They would all have been just as dead.

The whole episode was over in minutes. The time it would have taken to reload would have at least slowed it down and lowered the number of shots he was able to get off. It's a shame you're too stupid to understand that.

Most Back Ban on High-Capacity Clips

Quote :

This ABC News/Washington Post poll also finds that 54 percent of Americans favor stricter gun control laws in general, numerically a five-year high, albeit not significantly different than in recent years. Fifty-nine percent support a ban specifically on high-capacity ammunition clips, a step on which partisan and ideological gaps narrow substantially and “strong” support peaks.

Looks like our resident gun nut is on the wrong side of this issue too.

happy jack wrote:

For the purpose of this discussion, let’s assume that guns do not make us safer.

We don't need to assume, but do continue...

happy jack wrote:

But if you’re trying to be realistic, you must acknowledge that guns are not going away...

Nor do they exist only in times of need like the Sword of Gryffindor.

happy jack wrote:

...and that taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens would not have prevented this most recent shooting.

Not sure that's accurate. He used his mother's guns. If they weren't in the house, that days events would have been entirely different. How about the Batman shooting? Legally owned by a law abiding citizen.

Conservatives always like to point out that criminals can get there hands on weapons, but they always fail to mention how. I can't imagine where they're getting so many unless they're sold by, stolen, or borrowed from legal owners, assuming they weren't just legal owners in the first place.

happy jack wrote:

How many guns are out there is far less consequential than who has them.

True, and if we had any way of positively identifying criminals prior to the commission of a crime, our legal system would be entirely different, and this discussion wouldn't be necessary.

happy jack wrote:

I, like all others on this board, do not have a solution. And that is why I, unlike all the others on this board, am not proposing ridiculous and useless knee-jerk remedies.

But you seem dead set against any suggestion of reducing the number of firearms and their peripherals with no evidence offered other than hypothecticals. I'm not sure that's better.

happy jack wrote:

You do realize, don't you, precisely how much my guns or hobbies have to do with the deaths of these children?
Absolutely zero.

I don't drink and drive either, but that doesn't mean it should be legal.

The same could be said about a stockpile of RPGs and hand grenades in my basement were I to actually have them. But responsible people like you and I aren't the reason we have such laws, so I just wouldn't feel comfortable advocating for their sale at WalMarts across the US. Like I said, we both agree there should be a line, we're just quibbling over the where and why.

Heretic wrote:

happy jack wrote:

...and that taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens would not have prevented this most recent shooting.

Not sure that's accurate. He used his mother's guns. If they weren't in the house, that days events would have been entirely different. How about the Batman shooting? Legally owned by a law abiding citizen.

Yeah,and his idiot gun nut mother was a survivalist.
Gunman’s Aunt: Nancy Lanza Talked About Survivalism

Quote :

“Prepping” for the collapse of civilization

According to the aunt of Adam Lanza, Adam’s mother Nancy was a “survivalist.”
.
“Last time we visited with her in person we talked about prepping and you know, are you ready for what can happen down the line when the economy collapses,” said the gunman’s aunt, Marsha Lanza.

The reporter asked, “Survivalist kind of thing?”

“Yeah,” said Marsha Lanza.

I Googled “prepping” and discovered that there’s a thriving right wing movement dedicated to this form of survivalism; first time I’d heard the term in this context.

Oh,and speaking of right-wingers....
Right Wing Bloggers Blame Everything but Guns

Quote :

Nuts about guns

Roy Edroso takes a run around the right wing blogosphere to see their reaction to the Newtown massacre, and discovers that every single one of them is chanting MOAR GUNZ! MOAR GUNZ! GUNZ ARE THE SOLUTION, NOT THE PROBLEM!After Newtown, Rightbloggers Agree: Guns Don't Kill People, Everything Except Guns Kills People
After the gruesome murders of children and teachers by Adam Lanza in Newtown, Connecticut, apparently mostly performed with a Bushmaster AR-15 (“the civilian version of the military’s M-16 and M-4,” says the New York Times, “a logical choice for anyone whose goal is to kill a lot of people in a short time because of their ability to rapidly fire multiple high-velocity rounds”), rightbloggers were clear and united in their response: There are a lot of things that may have been the root cause of this tragedy — a lack of God, mental illness, public schools, liberals — but one thing that definitely had nothing at all to do with it was guns.

All the raving wingnuts are represented: Instapundit, Jeff Goldstein, Ace of Spades, National Review, neo-Confederate Robert Stacy McCain, and the Internet’s Dumbest Man, Jim Hoft. The leading lights of the right.
And speaking of Glenn “Instapundit” Reynolds, here he is retweeting a deranged, paranoid video from conspiracy lunatic Alex Jones:

Because that’s how the right wing blogs roll.

Now we know where our resident gun nut gets his warped talking points from

Sound like anyone we know?

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

My solution is feasible and has been known to work,dumbass.

[b]Has it?
Please explain.

Do your own research,Gomer

I've long realized that very little you say is true.
I'll just work on the assumption that this is yet one more of those occasions.

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

If those guns and the high capacity clips that are used with them,which you also support,were not available the odds are that some of those children and teachers might still be alive today.

[b]Highly, highly, highly, highly doubtful.
How much resistance would a terrified and unarmed teacher and terrified 6 and 7 year-olds have been able to muster against a crazy and determined adult using even 10 round clips, which can be dumped and reinserted within seconds (a point we’ve gone over earlier in this thread, by the way, and nothing has changed since.)?
They would all have been just as dead.

The whole episode was over in minutes. The time it would have taken to reload would have at least slowed it down and lowered the number of shots he was able to get off. It's a shame you're too stupid to understand that.

It's a shame that you're too stupid to understand that the shooter was the one who set the timetable and made the rules. He shot for as long as he chose, then ended it on his own terms - no one ended it for him. Reloading time was not a factor.

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

My solution is feasible and has been known to work,dumbass.

[b]Has it?
Please explain.

Do your own research,Gomer

I've long realized that very little you say is true.
I'll just work on the assumption that this is yet one more of those occasions.

Work on the fact that I'm not going to waste my time with a a lazy low-information NRA parrot. If you're too stupid to figure it out that's your problem.

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

The whole episode was over in minutes. The time it would have taken to reload would have at least slowed it down and lowered the number of shots he was able to get off. It's a shame you're too stupid to understand that.

It's a shame that you're too stupid to understand that the shooter was the one who set the timetable and made the rules. He shot for as long as he chose, then ended it on his own terms - no one ended it for him. Reloading time was not a factor.

Reloading wasn't a factor because he was using an AR-15 with high capacity clips,dumbass. Using a standard weapon with a 10 round he never could have got off anywhere near the amount of shots he did.

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

My solution is feasible and has been known to work,dumbass.

[b]Has it?
Please explain.

Do your own research,Gomer

I've long realized that very little you say is true.
I'll just work on the assumption that this is yet one more of those occasions.

Work on the fact that I'm not going to waste my time with a a lazy low-information NRA parrot. If you're too stupid to figure it out that's your problem.

No, I’m not too stupid to figure it out.
As a matter of fact, I’ve already figured it out – you’re lying again.

And, once again:

Any thoughts as to why in, say, the 40's, 50s, and most of the 60s, when guns were virtually unregulated, things like this didn't happen? If unregulated guns are the true culprit, incidents such as these, by your logic, should have occurred in those times with much greater frequency than they do today, seeing as how we now have so many firearm restrictions and regulations.
Try looking at the shooters, not the guns, and you may find your answers.

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Reloading wasn't a factor because he was using an AR-15 with high capacity clips,dumbass. Using a standard weapon with a 10 round he never could have got off anywhere near the amount of shots he did.

[b]We’ve been over this already on this very thread, but your ignorance of firearms is so astounding that I’m sure it hasn’t sunk in.
It takes, literally, just a few seconds to swap magazines, so 10 round clips would have easily done the trick in this case. The speed of his reloading, or lack thereof, wasn’t a factor in this case because he was going up against 6 year-olds who weren’t shooting back. In the time he had available, and with no resistance, the same amount of people would have been dead had he been using 10 round clips, a revolver, a machete, or a claw hammer. Remember, he himself ended it. It’s not as if, had he been using 10 round clips, a SWAT officer could have taken him out while he was fumbling with a reload; whoever was destined to die was already dead, regardless of the size of his magazine.

Your ignorance is stunning. 10 round clips would have forced him to reload 3 times more often possibly giving some of the victim time to escape or attempt to overpower him. There is no way 27 people would be dead if he used a a revolver, a machete, or a claw hammer.

Now go slither back to your cave and fire up another mission of 'Call of Duty",Rambo.

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

My solution is feasible and has been known to work,dumbass.

[b]Has it?
Please explain.

Do your own research,Gomer

I've long realized that very little you say is true.
I'll just work on the assumption that this is yet one more of those occasions.

Work on the fact that I'm not going to waste my time with a a lazy low-information NRA parrot. If you're too stupid to figure it out that's your problem.

No, I’m not too stupid to figure it out.
As a matter of fact, I’ve already figured it out – you’re lying again.

My suggestion has already been implemented and proven to be successful in preventing massacres,dumbass. Don't claim I'm a liar just because you're too stupid to figure out what it is.

interesting...

Quote :

Cerberus to sell stake in Bushmaster gun maker

NEW YORK (AP) — Cerberus is planning to sell its stake in Freedom Group, maker of the Bushmaster rifle, following the school shootings in Newtown, Conn.

The private equity firm said that the shootings were a watershed event in the national debate on gun control. While it said that it is not its role to take positions or attempt to shape or influence the gun control debate, Cerberus said it can take action by selling its stake in Freedom Group.

"We believe that this decision allows us to meet our obligations to the investors whose interests we are entrusted to protect without being drawn into the national debate that is more properly pursued by those with the formal charter and public responsibility to do so," the company said in a statement.

On Friday, 26 people were killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School in one of the worst mass shootings in U.S history. The gunman, Adam Lanza, used a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle during the shootings.

jack, you better get that Mini-14 before it's outlawed.

Gun enthusiasts race to buy military-style weapons

NECN/NBC News: Steve Handelsman) - There are signs that the horror in Connecticut has changed the political calculus in Washington about gun control. A famously pro-gun senator is joining a famously anti-gun mayor of New York to question the right to own assault weapons.

And ironically, those military style rifles are selling now, faster than ever.

At one shop in Chantilly, Va., people were in line to see and buy military-style weapons while they figured they still could.

Tim was shooting his mini 14, an assault-style rifle like the one used in Friday's massacre. He opposes any new bans.

“You're basically punishing law-abiding citizens,” Tim said. “If the law says I can own an assault rifle, why can't I own it if I’m doing the right thing with it?”

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is leading the push to change federal laws -- to curb new sales of assault weapons, and large capacity clips, and to stop sales at gun shows without a background check.

Bloomberg brought 34 people whose lives were torn by American gun violence.

"It's is an outrage,” Bloomberg said. “We are killing each other"

In Connecticut on Sunday, President Obama vowed action, but nothing specific.

Hundreds went to the NRA office in Washington demanded more gun controls, and a staunch NRA backer joined the call on Monday.

West Virginia’s Democratic senator Joe Manchin, an avid hunter, backed Bloomberg.

“I don't know of anybody that goes hunting with an assault rifle,” Manchin said.

Gun enthusiast Angela Brandon is thinking about new options after the shock of Newtown.

“Honestly, I wanted to cry because of those children,” Brandon said. “But at the same time, I'm not sure that gun control, more gun control than we already have, is the reason, really."

And ironically, the rampage in Connecticut has sparked record sales of weapons that buyers fear could soon be banned.

Senator Manchin, who won re-election this year, said his friends in the NRA need to be a part of this suddenly white-hot debate.

happy jack wrote:

Any thoughts as to why in, say, the 40's, 50s, and most of the 60s, when guns were virtually unregulated, things like this didn't happen?

Quote :

1940s
May [12] 6, 1940: South Pasadena, California. After being removed as principal of South Pasadena Junior High School, Verlin Spencer shot six school officials, killing five, before attempting to commit suicide by shooting himself in the stomach.
May 23, 1940: New York City, New York Infuriated by a grievance, Matthew Gillespie, 62-year-old janitor at the junior school of the Dwight School for Girls, shot and critically wounded Mrs. Marshall Coxe, secretary of the junior school.
July 4, 1940: Valhalla, New York Angered by the refusal of his daughter, Melba, 15 years old, to leave a boarding school and return to his home, Joseph Moshell, 47, visited the school and shot and killed the girl.
September 12, 1940: Uniontown, Pennsylvania, 29-year-old teacher Carolyn Dellamea is shot to death inside her third grade classroom by 35-year-old William Kuhns. Kuhns then shot himself in the chest in a failed suicide attempt. Kuhns had reportedly been courting Dellamea for over a year but the relationship was ended when Dellamea discovered that Kuhns was already married.[13]
October 2, 1942: New York City, New York Irwin Goodman, 36-year-old mathematics teacher at William J. Gaynor Junior High School, was shot and killed in the school corridor by a youth.
February 23, 1943: Port Chester, New York Harry Wyman, 13-year-old, shot himself dead at the Harvey School, a boys’ preparatory school.
June 26, 1946: Brooklyn, New York A 15-year-old schoolboy who balked at turning over his pocket money to a gang of seven youths was shot in the chest at 11:30 A.M. in the basement of the Public School 147 annex of the Brooklyn High School for Automotive Trades.
November 24, 1946: New York City A 13-year-old student at St. Benedict’s Parochial School, shot and fatally wounded himself while sitting in an audience watching a school play.
February 5, 1947: Madill, Oklahoma 1st grade teacher Jessie Laird, 40-years-old, was shot to death in her classroom, during recess, by her estranged husband, Ellis Laird, 62-years-old. Laird then fatally shot himself.
December 24, 1948: New York City A 14-year-old boy was wounded fatally by an accidental shot from the .22-caliber rifle of a fellow-student ... the youth was shot in the head when he chanced into range where Robert Ross, 17, of Brooklyn, was shooting at a target near a lake on the school property.
March 11, 1949: New York City A 16-year-old student at Stuyvesant High School was accidentally shot in the arm by a fellow student who was ‘showing off’ with a pistol in a classroom.
November 13, 1949: Columbus, Ohio, Ohio State University freshman James Heer grabbed a .45 caliber handgun from the room of a Delta Tau Delta fraternity brother and shot and killed his fraternity brother Jack McKeown, 21, an Ohio State senior.

1950s
April 25, 1950: Peru, Nebraska Dr. William Nicholas, 48, president of Peru State College and Dr. Paul Maxwell, 56, education department head, were shot to death at their desks by Dr. Barney Baker, 54-year-old psychology professor. Baker was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot at his home on campus.
July 22, 1950: New York City, New York A 16-year-old boy was shot in the wrist and abdomen at the Public School 141 dance... during an argument with a former classmate.
March 12, 1951: Union Mills, North Carolina Professor W. E. Sweatt, superintendent and teacher at the Alexander school, was shot to death by students Billy Ray Powell, 16, and Hugh Justice, 19. The assailants had been reprimanded by Sweatt, and they waited for him as he locked his office door.
June 4, 1951: New York City, New York Carl Arch, a 50-year-old intruder to a girl's gym class, was shot and killed by a police officer, at Manhattan's Central Commercial High School.
November 27, 1951: New York City, New York David Brooks, a 15-year-old student, was fatally shot as fellow-pupils looked on in a grade school.
April 9, 1952: New York City, New York A 15-year-old boarding-school student shot a dean rather than relinquish pin-up pictures of girls in bathing suits.
July 14, 1952: New York City, New York Bayard Peakes walked in to the offices of the American Physical Society at Columbia University and shot and killed secretary Eileen Fahey with a .22 caliber pistol. Peakes was reportedly upset that the APS had rejected a pamphlet he had written.
September 3, 1952: in Lawrenceville, Illinois After 25-year-old Georgine Lyon ended her engagement with Charles Petrach, Petrach shot and killed Lyon in a classroom at Lawrenceville High School where she worked as a librarian.
November 20, 1952: New York City, New York “Rear Admiral E. E. Herrmann, 56 years old, superintendent of the Naval Postgraduate School, was found dead in his office with a bullet in his head. A service revolver was found by his side.
October 2, 1953: Chicago, Illinois 14-year-old Patrick Colletta was shot to death by 14-year-old Bernice Turner in a classroom of Kelly High School in Chicago. It was reported that after Turner refused to date Colletta he handed her the gun and dared her to pull the trigger, telling her that the gun was “only a toy.” A coroner’s jury later ruled that the shooting was an accident.
October 8, 1953: New York City, New York Larry Licitra, 17-year-old student at the Machine and Metal Trades High School, was shot and slightly wounded in the right shoulder in the lobby of the school while inspecting a handmade pistol owned by one of several students.
March 31, 1954: Newton, Massachusetts John Frankenberger, 14, was accidentally shot to death in a classroom at Day Junior High School, when a pistol being held by a classmate discharged.
May 15, 1954: Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Putnam Davis Jr. was shot and killed during a fraternity house carnival at the Phi Delta Theta house at the University of North Carolina. William Joyner and Allen Long were shot and wounded during the exchange of gunfire in their fraternity bedroom. The incident took place after an all-night beer party. Mr. Long reported to the police that, while the three were drinking beer at 7 a.m., Davis pulled out a gun and started shooting with a gun he had obtained from the car of a former roommate.
January 11, 1955: Swarthmore, Pennsylvania After some of his dorm mates urinated on his mattress Bob Bechtel, a 20-year-old student at Swarthmore College, returned to his dorm with a shotgun and used it to shoot and kill fellow student Holmes Strozier.
May 4, 1956: in Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School in Prince George's County after he had been reprimanded from the school.
October 20, 1956: New York City, New York A junior high school student was wounded in the forearm by another student armed with a home-made weapon at Booker T. Washington Junior High School.
October 2, 1957: New York City, New York “A 16-year old student was shot in the leg by a 15-year old classmate at a city high school.”
March 4, 1958: New York City, New York “A 17-year-old student shot a boy in the Manual Training High School.”
May 1, 1958: Massapequa, New York A 15-year-old high school freshman was shot and killed by a classmate in a washroom of the Massapequa High School.
September 24, 1959: New York City, New York Twenty-seven men and boys and an arsenal were seized in the Bronx as the police headed off a gang war resulting from the fatal shooting of a teenager Monday at Morris High School.

1960s
February 2, 1960: Hartford City, Indiana Principal Leonard Redden shot and killed two teachers with a shotgun at William Reed Elementary School in Hartford City, Indiana, before fleeing into a remote forest, where he committed suicide.
March 30, 1960 Alice, Texas Donna Dvorak, 14, brought a .22 target pistol to Dubose Junior High School, and fatally shot Bobby Whitford, 15, in their 9th grade science class. Dvorak believed Whitford posed a threat to one of her girlfriends.
June 7, 1960: Blaine, Minnesota Lester Betts, a 40-year-old mail-carrier, walked into the office of 33-year-old principal Carson Hammond and shot him to death with a 12-gauge shotgun.
January 4, 1961: Delmont, South Dakota Donald Kurtz, 17-year-old senior at Delmont High School, was fatally wounded by a .22 caliber bullet from a rifle. The shot, intended as a sound effect for a school play, hit him in the chest during a rehearsal just minutes before the play was to take place.
October 17, 1961: Denver, Colorado Tennyson Beard, 14, got into an argument with William Hachmeister, 15, at Morey Junior High School. During the argument Beard pulled out a .38 caliber revolver and shot at Hachmeister, wounding him. A stray bullet also struck Deborah Faith Humphrey, 14, who died from her gunshot wound.
August 1, 1966: University of Texas Massacre Charles Whitman age 25, climbed atop the observation deck at the University of Texas-Austin, and killed 16 people and wounded 31 during a 96-minute shooting rampage.
November 12, 1966: Mesa, Arizona Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty, a school for training beauticians. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22-caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre. Smith had reportedly admired Richard Speck and Charles Whitman.
January 30, 1968: Miami, Florida 16-year-old Blanche Ward shot and killed fellow student Linda Lipscomb, 16, with a .22-caliber pistol at Miami Jackson High School. According to Ward, she was threatened with a razor by Lipscomb during an argument over a fountain pen, and in the ensuing struggle the gun went off.
February 8, 1968: Orangeburg, South Carolina In the days leading up to February 8, 1968, about 200 mostly student protesters gathered on the campus of South Carolina State University, located in the city of Orangeburg, to protest the segregation of the All Star Bowling Lane. The bowling alley was owned by the late Harry K. Floyd. That night, students started a bonfire. As police attempted to put out the fire, an officer was injured by a thrown piece of banister. The police said they believed they were under attack by small weapons fire. The officers fired into the crowd, killing three young men: Samuel Hammond, Delano Middleton, and Henry Smith, and wounding twenty-seven others.
May 22, 1968: Miami, Florida Ernest Lee Grissom, a 15-year-old student at Drew Junior High School, shot and seriously wounded a teacher and a 13-year-old student after he had been reprimanded for causing a disturbance.
January 17, 1969: Los Angeles, California Two student members of the Black Panther Party, Alprentice Carter and John Huggins, were fatally shot during a student meeting inside Campbell Hall at the University of California, Los Angeles. The motive of the shooting regarded who would own the school's African American Studies Center. The shooter, Claude Hubert, was never to be found but three other men were arrested in connection with the shooting.
November 19, 1969: Tomah, Wisconsin Principal Martin Mogensen was shot to death in his office by a 14-year-old boy armed with a 20 gauge shotgun.

SOURCE

What were the particulars of gun ownership during those times? What types, how many, where could you get them, etc....

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Don't claim I'm a liar just because you're too stupid to figure out what it is.

[b]I'm claiming that you're a liar because you made a claim that you refuse to back up.
It really is as simple as that.
If you are able to back up your claim, I will retract my claim.

Oh no! The board's trolling pinata is claiming I'm a liar. Help!!

I will be happy to discuss my suggestion with the folks here that are interested in honest discussion.

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Don't claim I'm a liar just because you're too stupid to figure out what it is.

[b]I'm claiming that you're a liar because you made a claim that you refuse to back up.
It really is as simple as that.
If you are able to back up your claim, I will retract my claim.

Oh no! The board's trolling pinata is claiming I'm a liar. Help!!

I will be happy to discuss my suggestion with the folks here that are interested in honest discussion.

An honest discussion requires honest participants.
Come back when you feel you are ready to meet that requirement.

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

If those guns and the high capacity clips that are used with them,which you also support,were not available the odds are that some of those children and teachers might still be alive today.

[b]Highly, highly, highly, highly doubtful.
How much resistance would a terrified and unarmed teacher and terrified 6 and 7 year-olds have been able to muster against a crazy and determined adult using even 10 round clips, which can be dumped and reinserted within seconds (a point we’ve gone over earlier in this thread, by the way, and nothing has changed since.)?
They would all have been just as dead.

The whole episode was over in minutes. The time it would have taken to reload would have at least slowed it down and lowered the number of shots he was able to get off. It's a shame you're too stupid to understand that.

Let me explain this in terms even you may be able to understand.
I consider myself to possess shooting skills that could most charitably be described as mediocre. I have, on occasion, timed myself at the range to see how many shots I could manage to fire in the shortest amount of time. Using four 10-round magazines, I am able to fire 40 rounds in approximately 20 seconds. Bear in mind that that 20 seconds also includes the time it takes me to dump an expended magazine and slap in a new one, comprising three reloads altogether.

Should someone with even my mediocre skills, and equipped with only 10-round magazines, choose to engage in something as atrocious as the Connecticut shootings, the timeline would go something like this:

First shot fired, and someone elsewhere in the building realizes that something is happening, but that person is not necessarily sure exactly what. By the time they have mentally processed and thought about reacting to the unknown, about 10 seconds have elapsed and the gunman has emptied at least two magazines.
Does this person opt to call 911 immediately, or does this person decide to assess the situation first?
Let’s say he calls 911 immediately.
He dials and waits for an answer, and by this time at least another 10 seconds have elapsed and the gunman has emptied his 3rd and 4th magazines.
The 911 operator listens, processes the information, and initiates the procedure to notify officers so that they may respond.
At least another 10 seconds have elapsed, and the gunman has emptied his 5th and 6th magazines, having fired 60 rounds so far. Again, bear in mind that his shooting skills are not up to the caliber of a member of some special forces team – he is mediocre at best – so let us concede that only one half of those shots were effective or lethal. You have 30 casualties in 30 seconds.

(Remember, we are living in YOUR ideal world, a world in which high-capacity magazines are illegal, but also a world in which only truly evil people (or conservatives) actually carry a weapon for their own self-defense. Since none of the fine, upstanding citizens who inhabit this hypothetical facility that the gunman is systematically demolishing would even think about carrying a gun to defend himself or herself, the gunman is thus free to shoot with impunity and without fear of being shot at.)

A police officer hears the call and repeats the location back to the 911 dispatcher – another 10 seconds have elapsed, allowing the gunman time to empty two more 10-round clips, again with a 50% casualty rate.
You are now dealing with 40 casualties.
Dependent upon where the responding officers are located when they get the call, and dependent upon traffic, etc., I think it would be fair to say that, at the very least, two minutes will have elapsed prior to their arrival on the scene, allowing the gunman to potentially fire 240 more rounds. For the sake of argument, let’s say that he’s getting tired and opts to fire only 100 rounds. At a 50% casualty rate, you have 50 more casualties, for a total of 90.
While the officers are coordinating and deciding upon which entrance to storm, among other discussions over all things tactical, at least another minute will have elapsed, allowing 120 more rounds to be fired, resulting in an additional 60 casualties, for a total of 150.
I could go on and on, but hopefully you have by now gotten the idea.
By this point, you have a total of 150 casualties. Unless this scenario is being played out in a football stadium during the Super Bowl, it would be a safe bet that there are not too many more people left to shoot at in this hypothetical facility, and the first member of the responding SWAT team has not yet even gotten through the door.
The gunman now puts a gun to his head and produces the 151st casualty.
And the other 150 either bleed or die with smiles on their faces, secure in the knowledge that high-capacity magazines have been banned, and that only crazy people carry guns.

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

If those guns and the high capacity clips that are used with them,which you also support,were not available the odds are that some of those children and teachers might still be alive today.

[b]Highly, highly, highly, highly doubtful.
How much resistance would a terrified and unarmed teacher and terrified 6 and 7 year-olds have been able to muster against a crazy and determined adult using even 10 round clips, which can be dumped and reinserted within seconds (a point we’ve gone over earlier in this thread, by the way, and nothing has changed since.)?
They would all have been just as dead.

The whole episode was over in minutes. The time it would have taken to reload would have at least slowed it down and lowered the number of shots he was able to get off. It's a shame you're too stupid to understand that.

Let me explain this in terms even you may be able to understand.

Please proceed Rambo...

Quote :

I consider myself to possess shooting skills that could most charitably be described as mediocre.

Much like your thinking skills.

Quote :

I have, on occasion, timed myself at the range to see how many shots I could manage to fire in the shortest amount of time. Using four 10-round magazines, I am able to fire 40 rounds in approximately 20 seconds. Bear in mind that that 20 seconds also includes the time it takes me to dump an expended magazine and slap in a new one, comprising three reloads altogether.

You sure you're not confusing this with a better than average session of "Call of Duty"?

Quote :

Should someone with even my mediocre skills, and equipped with only 10-round magazines, choose to engage in something as atrocious as the Connecticut shootings, the timeline would go something like this:

Fantasize about massacring children much?

Quote :

First shot fired, and someone elsewhere in the building realizes that something is happening, but that person is not necessarily sure exactly what. By the time they have mentally processed and thought about reacting to the unknown, about 10 seconds have elapsed and the gunman has emptied at least two magazines.

Been practicing for a while?

Quote :

Does this person opt to call 911 immediately, or does this person decide to assess the situation first?
Let’s say he calls 911 immediately.
He dials and waits for an answer, and by this time at least another 10 seconds have elapsed and the gunman has emptied his 3rd and 4th magazines.
The 911 operator listens, processes the information, and initiates the procedure to notify officers so that they may respond.
At least another 10 seconds have elapsed, and the gunman has emptied his 5th and 6th magazines, having fired 60 rounds so far. Again, bear in mind that his shooting skills are not up to the caliber of a member of some special forces team – he is mediocre at best – so let us concede that only one half of those shots were effective or lethal. You have 30 casualties in 30 seconds.

Putting you on a watch list sounds like a really,really good idea.

Quote :

(Remember, we are living in YOUR ideal world, a world in which high-capacity magazines are illegal, but also a world in which only truly evil people (or conservatives) actually carry a weapon for their own self-defense. Since none of the fine, upstanding citizens who inhabit this hypothetical facility that the gunman is systematically demolishing would even think about carrying a gun to defend himself or herself, the gunman is thus free to shoot with impunity and without fear of being shot at.)

Sounds like you've already scoped out a location.

Quote :

A police officer hears the call and repeats the location back to the 911 dispatcher – another 10 seconds have elapsed, allowing the gunman time to empty two more 10-round clips, again with a 50% casualty rate.
You are now dealing with 40 casualties.

Getting excited?

Quote :

Dependent upon where the responding officers are located when they get the call, and dependent upon traffic, etc., I think it would be fair to say that, at the very least, two minutes will have elapsed prior to their arrival on the scene, allowing the gunman to potentially fire 240 more rounds. For the sake of argument, let’s say that he’s getting tired and opts to fire only 100 rounds. At a 50% casualty rate, you have 50 more casualties, for a total of 90.
While the officers are coordinating and deciding upon which entrance to storm, among other discussions over all things tactical, at least another minute will have elapsed, allowing 120 more rounds to be fired, resulting in an additional 60 casualties, for a total of 150.

Almost there?

Quote :

I could go on and on, but hopefully you have by now gotten the idea.

Yeah,you finally ejaculated.

Quote :

By this point, you have a total of 150 casualties. Unless this scenario is being played out in a football stadium during the Super Bowl, it would be a safe bet that there are not too many more people left to shoot at in this hypothetical facility, and the first member of the responding SWAT team has not yet even gotten through the door.
The gunman now puts a gun to his head and produces the 151st casualty.

Mission accomplished,right psycho?

Quote :

And the other 150 either bleed or die with smiles on their faces, secure in the knowledge that high-capacity magazines have been banned, and that only crazy people carry guns.

And this I guess is your idea of a happy ending.

CC:FBI,Dept of Homeland Security,BATF,Indiana State Police,Indiana Division of Mental Health

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

If those guns and the high capacity clips that are used with them,which you also support,were not available the odds are that some of those children and teachers might still be alive today.

[b]Highly, highly, highly, highly doubtful.
How much resistance would a terrified and unarmed teacher and terrified 6 and 7 year-olds have been able to muster against a crazy and determined adult using even 10 round clips, which can be dumped and reinserted within seconds (a point we’ve gone over earlier in this thread, by the way, and nothing has changed since.)?
They would all have been just as dead.

The whole episode was over in minutes. The time it would have taken to reload would have at least slowed it down and lowered the number of shots he was able to get off. It's a shame you're too stupid to understand that.

Let me explain this in terms even you may be able to understand.

Please proceed Rambo...

Quote :

I consider myself to possess shooting skills that could most charitably be described as mediocre.

Much like your thinking skills.

Quote :

I have, on occasion, timed myself at the range to see how many shots I could manage to fire in the shortest amount of time. Using four 10-round magazines, I am able to fire 40 rounds in approximately 20 seconds. Bear in mind that that 20 seconds also includes the time it takes me to dump an expended magazine and slap in a new one, comprising three reloads altogether.

You sure you're not confusing this with a better than average session of "Call of Duty"?

Quote :

Should someone with even my mediocre skills, and equipped with only 10-round magazines, choose to engage in something as atrocious as the Connecticut shootings, the timeline would go something like this:

Fantasize about massacring children much?

Quote :

First shot fired, and someone elsewhere in the building realizes that something is happening, but that person is not necessarily sure exactly what. By the time they have mentally processed and thought about reacting to the unknown, about 10 seconds have elapsed and the gunman has emptied at least two magazines.

Been practicing for a while?

Quote :

Does this person opt to call 911 immediately, or does this person decide to assess the situation first?
Let’s say he calls 911 immediately.
He dials and waits for an answer, and by this time at least another 10 seconds have elapsed and the gunman has emptied his 3rd and 4th magazines.
The 911 operator listens, processes the information, and initiates the procedure to notify officers so that they may respond.
At least another 10 seconds have elapsed, and the gunman has emptied his 5th and 6th magazines, having fired 60 rounds so far. Again, bear in mind that his shooting skills are not up to the caliber of a member of some special forces team – he is mediocre at best – so let us concede that only one half of those shots were effective or lethal. You have 30 casualties in 30 seconds.

Putting you on a watch list sounds like a really,really good idea.

Quote :

(Remember, we are living in YOUR ideal world, a world in which high-capacity magazines are illegal, but also a world in which only truly evil people (or conservatives) actually carry a weapon for their own self-defense. Since none of the fine, upstanding citizens who inhabit this hypothetical facility that the gunman is systematically demolishing would even think about carrying a gun to defend himself or herself, the gunman is thus free to shoot with impunity and without fear of being shot at.)

Sounds like you've already scoped out a location.

Quote :

A police officer hears the call and repeats the location back to the 911 dispatcher – another 10 seconds have elapsed, allowing the gunman time to empty two more 10-round clips, again with a 50% casualty rate.
You are now dealing with 40 casualties.

Getting excited?

Quote :

Dependent upon where the responding officers are located when they get the call, and dependent upon traffic, etc., I think it would be fair to say that, at the very least, two minutes will have elapsed prior to their arrival on the scene, allowing the gunman to potentially fire 240 more rounds. For the sake of argument, let’s say that he’s getting tired and opts to fire only 100 rounds. At a 50% casualty rate, you have 50 more casualties, for a total of 90.
While the officers are coordinating and deciding upon which entrance to storm, among other discussions over all things tactical, at least another minute will have elapsed, allowing 120 more rounds to be fired, resulting in an additional 60 casualties, for a total of 150.

Almost there?

Quote :

I could go on and on, but hopefully you have by now gotten the idea.

Yeah,you finally ejaculated.

Quote :

By this point, you have a total of 150 casualties. Unless this scenario is being played out in a football stadium during the Super Bowl, it would be a safe bet that there are not too many more people left to shoot at in this hypothetical facility, and the first member of the responding SWAT team has not yet even gotten through the door.
The gunman now puts a gun to his head and produces the 151st casualty.

Mission accomplished,right psycho?

Quote :

And the other 150 either bleed or die with smiles on their faces, secure in the knowledge that high-capacity magazines have been banned, and that only crazy people carry guns.

And this I guess is your idea of a happy ending.

CC:FBI,Dept of Homeland Security,BATF,Indiana State Police,Indiana Division of Mental Health

As usual, you flaming moron, you’ve missed my point entirely. I am trying to show you how utterly useless a ban on high-capacity magazines would ultimately be.
If I could come up with even one law that could have prevented the Connecticut shootings, believe me, I would. Unfortunately, I am at a loss, as are you and everyone else. And, finding yourselves at a loss, you decide, in typical knee-jerk fashion, to do something, anything, no matter how useless (see ‘high-capacity magazine ban’).
If you ever come up with something constructive, something that would definitely prevent all this heartbreak in the future, please let me know and I will wholeheartedly back it. Until then, I’d appreciate if you would keep your less-than-useless feel-good gestures to yourself.