new, new school issue.

sparks wrote:

Tiger1 wrote:

If you want to see 1st hand just how bad the problem is, come over to the neighborhood by Eggers School about 3:40pm(they have a longer school day than the other Hammond Schools). You will not believe your eyes. EVERY DAY, there are fights, property damage, swearing, drug dealing, R-X rated touching, etc. These same Eggers kids will be going to Hammond High in a year or 2.

I have personally seen these kids drug dealing, damaging my neighbors property(I chase them off or call the police), blocking the streets, fighting(especially on the bike trail), and get smoochy-smoochy . The noise volume is unreal, as these kids are screaming obscenities at the top of their lungs.

For the past 4 years, the school city of Hammond has been prevented from building a new high school which would stabilize the crime ridden area around Hammond High and hopefully attract families who have strong work ethics and are willing to parent their children. As long as Hammond allows it's plans to rebuild Hammond High to be held hostage by a few disgruntled landlords, this is the kind of future you can look forward in your neighborhood. I for one would not live there or invest money where you live. There is a show on TV called "What would you Do?" that videotapes people ignoring problems or failing to help others in need. As long as you stand by idlely and allow the gangbangers to overrun your neighborhood, they will know it's OK to do so. Part of the reason there is no drug dealing in the streets in the Woodmar neighborhood is because we won't stand for it. At some point you have to quit whining on the boards about how your neighborhood sucks and actually try to improve things.

No drug dealing in Woodmar. But how many murders at McTavern's this year.

LoisLane wrote:

sparks wrote:

Tiger1 wrote:

If you want to see 1st hand just how bad the problem is, come over to the neighborhood by Eggers School about 3:40pm(they have a longer school day than the other Hammond Schools). You will not believe your eyes. EVERY DAY, there are fights, property damage, swearing, drug dealing, R-X rated touching, etc. These same Eggers kids will be going to Hammond High in a year or 2.

I have personally seen these kids drug dealing, damaging my neighbors property(I chase them off or call the police), blocking the streets, fighting(especially on the bike trail), and get smoochy-smoochy . The noise volume is unreal, as these kids are screaming obscenities at the top of their lungs.

For the past 4 years, the school city of Hammond has been prevented from building a new high school which would stabilize the crime ridden area around Hammond High and hopefully attract families who have strong work ethics and are willing to parent their children. As long as Hammond allows it's plans to rebuild Hammond High to be held hostage by a few disgruntled landlords, this is the kind of future you can look forward in your neighborhood. I for one would not live there or invest money where you live. There is a show on TV called "What would you Do?" that videotapes people ignoring problems or failing to help others in need. As long as you stand by idlely and allow the gangbangers to overrun your neighborhood, they will know it's OK to do so. Part of the reason there is no drug dealing in the streets in the Woodmar neighborhood is because we won't stand for it. At some point you have to quit whining on the boards about how your neighborhood sucks and actually try to improve things.

No drug dealing in Woodmar. But how many murders at McTavern's this year.

There was one gangbanger killed in McTavern's parking lot because of the the irresponsible owners at McTavern's who are trying to make a buck by catering to gangbangers. The people who live in Woodmar have formed a crime watch group that is determined to not let the Hundley's ruin this neighborhood. We are working together to solve problems instead of whining about them on the boards.

sparks wrote:

There was one gangbanger killed in McTavern's parking lot because of the the irresponsible owners at McTavern's who are trying to make a buck by catering to gangbangers. The people who live in Woodmar have formed a crime watch group that is determined to not let the Hundley's ruin this neighborhood. We are working together to solve problems instead of whining about them on the boards.

Excuse me? Sounds like you do an awful lot of whining about just about everything including your drug deals in Woodmar. And on this board.

Now back on topic...

If the SCH is going to try and pass this idea I would like to see some concept drawings. I am curious on how much land they are going to need and where the footprint is. I am also very curious about the sport facilities as I think that a school needs adequate space for sports and extra curricular activities. That was never brought out in the other plan.

voter3 wrote:

Now back on topic...

If the SCH is going to try and pass this idea I would like to see some concept drawings. I am curious on how much land they are going to need and where the footprint is. I am also very curious about the sport facilities as I think that a school needs adequate space for sports and extra curricular activities. That was never brought out in the other plan.

The first thing on the agenda should be to hold a design contest (very popular in the east) and award the contract to the winning architectural firm. Fanning-Howey is the problem. They'll cadillac out any project. And SCH was ripe for the pickin's. Remember the more crap they build into a plan, the more fee they get.

LoisLane wrote:

voter3 wrote:

Now back on topic...

If the SCH is going to try and pass this idea I would like to see some concept drawings. I am curious on how much land they are going to need and where the footprint is. I am also very curious about the sport facilities as I think that a school needs adequate space for sports and extra curricular activities. That was never brought out in the other plan.

The first thing on the agenda should be to hold a design contest (very popular in the east) and award the contract to the winning architectural firm. Fanning-Howey is the problem. They'll cadillac out any project. And SCH was ripe for the pickin's. Remember the more crap they build into a plan, the more fee they get.

From what I have read, design competitions end up more costly than simply simply RFP's from several architects who specialize in designing educational facilities.
http://www.nzia.co.nz/downloads/Competitions_Introduction_May_03_website_1.pdf
Holding an architectural competition will cost more than commissioning a
particular architect directly, but typically will achieve a better outcome.
Competition costs depend of the size and complexity of the project.
It is customary for competitors to receive remuneration for competition
submissions. This may include prize money for successful entrants to an agreed
fee for each competitor, depending on the type of competition and extend of
submission required.
I think Governor Daniel's idea of having an architect design a single "vanilla" box model for use statewide is a far better use of taxpayer money. The money saved by not paying exorbidant fees to architects to custom design every school is an excellent idea whose time has come.

From what I have read, design competitions end up more costly than simply simply RFP's from several architects who specialize in designing educational facilities.

The article you posted doesn't say that. It says holding the competition has a cost, not that the project ultimately costs more. Also, the relevance of an article from New Zealand to Hammond is questionable.

sparks wrote:

I think Governor Daniel's idea of having an architect design a single "vanilla" box model for use statewide is a far better use of taxpayer money. The money saved by not paying exorbidant fees to architects to custom design every school is an excellent idea whose time has come.

A standard vanilla box model for a school is a ridiculous concept. A high school in Hammond, IN does not work Waveland, IN. The population and special needs are too diverse. The curriculums are also widely obtuse, as are the environmental issues. Also the actual site has to dictate the types of building, as does the number and size of classrooms. This is not a new Home Depot, but a building for learning.

Robin Banks wrote:

From what I have read, design competitions end up more costly than simply simply RFP's from several architects who specialize in designing educational facilities.

The article you posted doesn't say that. It says holding the competition has a cost, not that the project ultimately costs more. Also, the relevance of an article from New Zealand to Hammond is questionable.

The article I linked to gave a general overview of design competitions. The reason I linked it was to back up my contention that custom designing schools is a waste of money and holding design competitions for a high school is an even bigger waste of money. Perhaps you can provide some proof that the article I linked to didn't have revelance or is inaccurate in some way?

sparks wrote:

The article I linked to gave a general overview of design competitions. The reason I linked it was to back up my contention that custom designing schools is a waste of money and holding design competitions for a high school is an even bigger waste of money. Perhaps you can provide some proof that the article I linked to didn't have revelance or is inaccurate in some way?

Trust me. I work with the educational design industry. You don't know what you are talking about.

LoisLane wrote:

sparks wrote:

I think Governor Daniel's idea of having an architect design a single "vanilla" box model for use statewide is a far better use of taxpayer money. The money saved by not paying exorbidant fees to architects to custom design every school is an excellent idea whose time has come.

A standard vanilla box model for a school is a ridiculous concept. A high school in Hammond, IN does not work Waveland, IN. The population and special needs are too diverse. The curriculums are also widely obtuse, as are the environmental issues. Also the actual site has to dictate the types of building, as does the number and size of classrooms. This is not a new Home Depot, but a building for learning.

The curriculums are widely obtuse? I have to laugh when people use words they don't understand in an attempt to appear smarter than they really are. The curriculums that high school students take are mandated by the state and are not "obtuse". And it really doesn't matter what part of the state you are in when you are teaching algebra or physics, the classrooms needed to do so are identical. There are some differences that every site has, but not enough to justify designing custom schools for each site. The amount of many wasted by the taxpayers on architects could easily be cut by two thirds with no problem.

Now, I'm just a lay person here and just wondering-

Sparks are you an electrician or work in building design?

Ohhmama wrote:

Now, I'm just a lay person here and just wondering-

Sparks are you an electrician or work in building design?

I think he's an electrician that wishes he could be an architect.

sparks wrote:

The curriculums are widely obtuse? I have to laugh when people use words they don't understand in an attempt to appear smarter than they really are. The curriculums that high school students take are mandated by the state and are not "obtuse". And it really doesn't matter what part of the state you are in when you are teaching algebra or physics, the classrooms needed to do so are identical. There are some differences that every site has, but not enough to justify designing custom schools for each site. The amount of many wasted by the taxpayers on architects could easily be cut by two thirds with no problem.

So, how many Spanish speaking classrooms would you think there are in Waveland, IN? How many Special Education classrooms? How many small engine repair classes are offered in Gary, IN? Sorry, not a clue!

LoisLane wrote:

sparks wrote:

I think Governor Daniel's idea of having an architect design a single "vanilla" box model for use statewide is a far better use of taxpayer money. The money saved by not paying exorbidant fees to architects to custom design every school is an excellent idea whose time has come.

A standard vanilla box model for a school is a ridiculous concept. A high school in Hammond, IN does not work Waveland, IN. The population and special needs are too diverse. The curriculums are also widely obtuse, as are the environmental issues. Also the actual site has to dictate the types of building, as does the number and size of classrooms. This is not a new Home Depot, but a building for learning.

This is a rediculous statement based on pure common sense. What changes on a building if a school is more diverse? Do the rooms have to face Mecca? Give me a break every corner you put on a building increases the cost of building it. If there are more kids make the building longer. Lois are saying that the elemaentary school built in Hammond recently needed to be so elaborate? If you work with educational design then I guess you would!!

voter3 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

sparks wrote:

I think Governor Daniel's idea of having an architect design a single "vanilla" box model for use statewide is a far better use of taxpayer money. The money saved by not paying exorbidant fees to architects to custom design every school is an excellent idea whose time has come.

A standard vanilla box model for a school is a ridiculous concept. A high school in Hammond, IN does not work Waveland, IN. The population and special needs are too diverse. The curriculums are also widely obtuse, as are the environmental issues. Also the actual site has to dictate the types of building, as does the number and size of classrooms. This is not a new Home Depot, but a building for learning.

This is a rediculous statement based on pure common sense. What changes on a building if a school is more diverse? Do the rooms have to face Mecca? Give me a break every corner you put on a building increases the cost of building it. If there are more kids make the building longer. Lois are saying that the elemaentary school built in Hammond recently needed to be so elaborate? If you work with educational design then I guess you would!!

The elementary schools by Fanning-Howey are ridiculously elaborate, as are the custom casework and the flooring. That is how architects sneak in design details that eventually cost more. And the school boards oversee design and construction. Most of whom are not educators nor educational design professionals. So when the final cost comes in they say WTF, and are at the mercy of the taxpayers when a ceiling caves in over the computer lab. (Irving School) It isn't the brick and mortar totally, but the "little things" that sneak up on you. Even things like plumbing fixtures and lighting can cost an arm and a leg, if you let it. How about heating and cooling. Many schools do not air condition the schools, because they are empty in the summer. Do you know how much damage that causes? Ceiling panels buckle, floors can separate from adhesive, and mold can grow. It isn't as simple as 1-2-3, anymore.

voter3 wrote:

LoisLane wrote:

sparks wrote:

I think Governor Daniel's idea of having an architect design a single "vanilla" box model for use statewide is a far better use of taxpayer money. The money saved by not paying exorbidant fees to architects to custom design every school is an excellent idea whose time has come.

A standard vanilla box model for a school is a ridiculous concept. A high school in Hammond, IN does not work Waveland, IN. The population and special needs are too diverse. The curriculums are also widely obtuse, as are the environmental issues. Also the actual site has to dictate the types of building, as does the number and size of classrooms. This is not a new Home Depot, but a building for learning.

This is a ridiculous statement based on pure common sense. What changes on a building if a school is more diverse? Do the rooms have to face Mecca? Give me a break every corner you put on a building increases the cost of building it. If there are more kids make the building longer. Lois are saying that the elementary school built in Hammond recently needed to be so elaborate? If you work with educational design then I guess you would!!

Did you catch how she claimed that classrooms for teaching spanish need to be different? Do you think there need to be special acoustical panels designed so students can say,Como esta? She made a long response bashing Fanning Howery, but never addressed the points that we made, ie, school construction could be standardized and built at a far lower cost. I still can't believe that she thinks putting AC in schools is some great insight. There hasn't been a school built in this state for the last 30 years that didn't have AC. Comfortable temperatures do impact learning.

school construction could be standardized and built at a far lower cost.

Actually some of us have been asking for years now why that isn't already the practice. It was the main premise a few years ago of Fowler's comparison of sq footage costs in comparable needs. I asked why we couldn't just purchase the existing plans used elsewhere and copy it for our needs sometimes.

I could have clicked on many quotes. I would like to answer a few of you -

First of all, Sheffield Estates, is almost BARE. There are a hand-full of trailers there that pay their rent. Sheffield Estates, I typed the contract for the old owners, and the estate was filled with delinquent - behind rents. The new owner took over, threw the bums out. Nothing is there for him to possibly make a profit. Relocating a high school in that area is asking for trouble. North Hammond is full of dope addicts, parents that don't care, and it would be a disaster. Location, location, location - like as if you are buying a home.

When you want to build a new school, location is important. I can't recite President Obama's exact words, but it was to express that you can build all the new school buildings you want, but you, as parents, have to take responsibility to see that the tv is shut off, they do their homework, and instill the values they need, and quit putting it on the teachers.

I can remember in 1968, entering Thornridge (yeah, with Richer Roeper, if you need credibility), how we went to school on either the a.m. shift or p.m. shift. Luckily, I got the a.m. shift, which allowed me to do homework after arriving home at 2 p.m., and working at my first job and babysitting on school nights. I remember I was never allowed out the door without first doing my homework. But, I also remember (call Roeper), a couple of trailers outside Thornridge H.S., ...it was called, "Ding-dong School". The troublemakers had to study and go to school in the trailers, parked in the center of the school's court yard.

It was a time for "integration". I got held back not in school years, but lot's of disruption in the classrooms. Racism was on their minds... The few that were obviously not serious about schooling, but serious enough to qualify for the ding-dong school, did nothing but intimidate us white students. Me, coming from a Catholic school, from a small Misourian town, never knew skin color meant you were treated different. I remember all the parents on the block organizing, and protesting this "integrated" - FORCED INTEGRATION, on a brand new white suburb, forced to share our high school with Harvey children. I remember it all.

I remember the disruptions I never experienced before with kids bad-mouthing each other, but not trying to disrespect the teachers. It held me back emotionally. I just wanted to get through the day and move on.

If I though things were horrible back them (as Richard Roeper, I bullied the pint-size know-it-all who worked at Fayva Shoes in Dolton), it was horrible. I can't imagine what these kids are going through today. It's minor what happened to us...but we need to retain our great teachers more than anything.

I'd like to know what happened to the idea of creating the lottery to pour the money into the schools, to relieve property owners. I really want to know. I guess I already know...the politicians are so busy borrowing from that, pensions, etc., that eventually I hope no one buys a damn ticket. It's like fishing in a lake with no fish.

The saddest part is, all the trillions in the hole we are in, and education, no matter what kind of building you have to go to, all this debt is going to be passed on to these uneducated kids. A double whammy.

Education should be a priority. These kids are our future and how possibly can they get ahead, no matter how educated they are? We're not talking High School, the kids graduating this spring from college are already paying a price. There are NO jobs. The only guarantee of a job is if you know a politician, and they save you. That is the truth and it's sick.

....and yes, a standard should be set for building a school that conforms in every state. If you need to rebuild, go for the green, and make it standard in every state, and quit wasting time and money.

It does NOT matter what type of building you are in. Location, types of students, and most of all, if they lack English, put them in a trailer along with the delinquents. Enough is enough. The answers out there are so obvious with common sense...it's NOT the building, it the type of students that hold back the ones that are legally here, with parents that care, that are being held back by gang-bangers.

It makes me want to puke when the little 12 year old has to go to Gavitt and see kids being pulled away with cops. She said it happens frequently.

At that age, if something happened at a school where my kids think it's an acceptable, normal occurance, I'd flee the state. Fortunately, I don't have to send them anywhere anymore.

I feel sorry for people that think a school building would make a difference. How about the teacher who has to teach a non-speaking English child, because their parents were too damn lazy to teach them the respect of our country? They hold back our class of children, and that's the problem. Not a simple building. Oh, I get so mad at you guys when it comes to common sense.

Sparks, if you are looking for electrical work, I told you to check out the Federal Registar online. You can make more, than worrying about electrifying a damn high school. You don't care about nothing but getting the contract. That's my take.

I feel sorry for people that think a school building would make a difference.

I admit that a bad building can be a distraction but if recent history in Hammond has demonstrated one thing it's that this was not the real problem here. But rather than correct the real problems we are being sold a bill of goods that the solution is new construction and comparatively overpaying per sq foot only adds salt to the wound.

What cannot be ignored is the school corporation's debt service. The only folks who don't admit it's already too high are those who favor new construction. Well fancy that!

sparks wrote:

Did you catch how she claimed that classrooms for teaching spanish need to be different? Do you think there need to be special acoustical panels designed so students can say,Como esta? She made a long response bashing Fanning Howery, but never addressed the points that we made, ie, school construction could be standardized and built at a far lower cost. I still can't believe that she thinks putting AC in schools is some great insight. There hasn't been a school built in this state for the last 30 years that didn't have AC. Comfortable temperatures do impact learning.

Ok, how about school construction NOT being held to the same wage constraints as standard construction. Do you think a laborer shoving around a wagon picking up 2 x 4"s and drywall scraps or shoving a broom around the floor should be making $35 per hour? Or a union electrician getting $65 per hour? You bitch about someone on the assembly line at an auto plant getting that kind of money screwing in dome lights and driving up the price of cars, how about a standardized wage for the trades building schools?

And true, MOST schools in Indiana have A/C, but what about the ones built in the 50"s or 60's, that don't. Do we retofit them or just ignore the problems.

And what do you know about Life Safety? How does that impact the construction of a "standard vanilla box" school?

The AC is a necessity. When these schools were built the school year was room September to early June or late May. We not go to school mid Augst to early mid-June. I cannot conduct many experiments that teachers in other building can because climate control is required., which puts my students behind already. Unless I use my own personal money to buy equipment that can take the 95 degrees plus room conditions, the students get a less quality science education.

While we say how many of our students and parents do not value education there are many examples of how our system of budget and finance does the same. In the 21st century no students need to sit in a hot classroom with buckets of water around them to catch falling rain from leaky roofs. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Sorry Lois but you havent written anything to support your point of view. When it comes down to it a room is four walls and what happens inside of them is up to the people inside of them...and the PARENTS of those inside. I walked through Orchard School and I could not understand why there was a large pond and patio in the middle of the school.

voter3 wrote:

Sorry Lois but you havent written anything to support your point of view. When it comes down to it a room is four walls and what happens inside of them is up to the people inside of them...and the PARENTS of those inside. I walked through Orchard School and I could not understand why there was a large pond and patio in the middle of the school.

If Orchard School has a large pond and patio in the middle of the school, and you can't understand why, you should be asking your School Board. They and only they approved the final plans. There is a huge waste in school design and construction, I'll give you that. But it is up to the School Board and Administrators to make sure costs don't get out of hand. Until now, they have had a free hand.

To reinforce my opposition to ONE vanilla box school design is this:
If you assembled 100 people from all over the State of Indiana, put them in one room and asked them to come up with ONE design, what would happen?
You'd never get 100 people to agree. (Look at how many people on this Board do not agree, on anything)
It would take them forever to NOT agree on one design.
And if they did agree on ONE design, would that design be obsolete in 20 years? Or would the design only be good for modern day?
(Remember raised floors for computers? We don't need them now.)