Gun Control

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

 Are you really saying that (before the law changed) it wasn't safe to be in a National Park without a gun?  

I'm saying that if an individual is legally able to carry a weapon on the city streets, I see no reason why that person should not also be legally able to carry a weapon in a national park. Do you think that such a person turns instantly homicidal as soon as he passes under the archway of the entrance to a national park?

I see. So now you're changing your rationale...

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

 

Scorpion wrote:

 
Why should we allow guns in our National Parks at all?  

For protection from predators, both two-legged and four-legged.

As you can see, you specifically said that we should allow guns in our National Parks for "protection" from "predators."  All I was asking was if it was unsafe to be in a National Park (before the law changed) without a gun?

You should stick to the questions that I'm asking you, Jack.  It's the Path to Wisdom and Enlightenment.

I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else at any given time. You might as well ask me if it is unsafe to be, for example, at the intersection of Florence and Normandie in Los Angeles....

Man. You really have problems staying focused, don't you? We're talking about National Parks.  If you wanted to cite examples of violence in National Parks, then that might be relevant to our discussion... but what you have posted here is not.

No, I'm quite focused. As I said earlier:

Violence, almost without fail, occurs randomly and unexpectedly. I can't speak for everyone who carries a gun, but I would bet most of them don't carry it because they think that they are walking into an unsafe situation; they carry it because they understand that a seemingly safe situation could become unsafe very quickly. Such is the nature of violence.

Yeah. Well that's very riveting, Jack.  But again, we're not arguing about guns outside the National Parks... at least not in this discussion.

happy jack wrote:

I know you're waiting to pounce on me with statistics of crime rates in national parks, so go right ahead.

No.  Sorry, but you're incorrect.  Frankly, I have absolutely no idea what the statistics show.  It's not up to me to produce any, either.  You are the one claiming that our National Parks are unsafe. not me.

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

You are the one claiming that our National Parks are unsafe. not me.

No, actually - I never said any such thing.
Perhaps you need to "focus" in order to avoid making such a clearly false accusation in the future.

happy jack wrote:

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else at any given time.

Oh, I read that... but I didn't think it deserved much recognition because of the qualifier at the end of the statement. ("at any given time")

Do you stand by the statement without the qualifier?  

In other words, do you stand by this statement?

happy jack wrote:

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else.

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

You are the one claiming that our National Parks are unsafe. not me.

No, actually - I never said any such thing.
Perhaps you need to "focus" in order to avoid making such a clearly false accusation in the future.

happy jack wrote:

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else at any given time.

Oh, I read that... but I didn't think it deserved much recognition because of the qualifier at the end of the statement. ("at any given time")

Do you stand by the statement without the qualifier?  

In other words, do you stand by this statement?

happy jack wrote:

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else.

I'm not following you as to how the qualifier makes a whole helluva lot of difference one way or the other.
Do you find something sinister about the qualifier?

No, I'm just clarifying... you do stand by the statement below, as written, then?

happy jack wrote:

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else.

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

No, I'm just clarifying... you do stand by the statement below, as written, then?

happy jack wrote:

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else.

I stand by my statement as I wrote it, not as you edited it.
If you have some problem with the statement as I wrote it, please clarify.

You just got finished saying that you didn't see " how the qualifier makes a whole helluva lot of difference one way or the other."  Yet now you're refusing to let the statement stand unless it's included?  

I don't think I need to clarify anything.  I suspect you know exactly why the qualifier is important.  

Let's try again.  What is it about this statement...

Quote :

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else.

...that you disagree with?

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Let's try again.  What is it about this statement...

Quote :

 
I don't think national parks are either inherently safer or inherently more unsafe than anywhere else.

...that you disagree with?

What I find disagreeable is that you took a statement I made, edited it, and are now demanding that I explain myself based upon your edited version.
If you have some problem with my statement as it was originally written, please explain.

Put simply, lots of things can happen "at any given time," but that sure as hell doesn’t make them inevitable, or even likely.

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Put simply, lots of things can happen "at any given time," but that sure as hell doesn’t make them inevitable, or even likely.

Nor does it make them impossible.
As I've said several times before - random and unexpected.

Yeah. Well a suicide bombing is "random and unexpected" too. So fucking what?

So 2 gun psychos walk into a farmers market...
Police Halt Two Men With Assault Rifles Outside Farmers Market — Now The Men Might Sue

Quote :

Earlier this month, two men decided to wander into a crowded farmers market in Appleton, Wisconsin each with an AR-15 assault rifle strapped across their back. They did not make it to the market. After several residents called 911, expressing concerns about the two gun-toting men. Police briefly detained the men, with at least one officer drawing his weapon after they determined that the assault rifles were real. The men were briefly handcuffed and detained but were eventually released without citations.

Although open carry is legal in Wisconsin, police say they stopped the men to prevent a panic — “walking into a farmers market filled with a couple thousand individuals would be a recipe for disaster.” Yet the a county attorney told the Appleton Post-Crescent that the men could not be charged because “they had not made it to the farmers market” at the point when they were stopped and the men are reportedly considering a lawsuit against the police. In video of the men’s encounter with the police, one of the men tells an officer that they are carrying a highly visible pair of assault rifles into a crowded public market for “self defense.”

Now suppose there are a few other gun lunatics in the crowd. They jump to the conclusion,and some would say rightfully so,that these 2 idiots are going to shoot up the place.  After all,who in their right mind walks into a farmers market with an AR-15? Next thing you know,guns come out and someone or who knows how many end up dead as a result.
Thanks NRA

Quote :

"The largest study of gun violence in the United States, released Thursday afternoon, confirms a point that should be obvious: widespread American gun ownership is fueling America’s gun violence epidemic."

 No shit.

Quote :

3-year-old boy shot, killed in mobile home

Stan Maddux Times Correspondent

A 3-year-old boy was fatally shot Sunday afternoon inside a mobile home outside Michigan City.

LaPorte County and Michigan City police about 3:30 p.m. responded to Terrace Acres on U.S. 20 just west of Hitchcock Street.

Police were at the scene Sunday night investigating the circumstances leading up to the shooting, said LaPorte County Chief Deputy Coroner Mark Huffman.

The child was shot in a single wide mobile home on Farmington Drive.

Yes, we need moar gunz!


Pictured above are the most stupid and ignorant creatures on the planet.

More irrefutable, bulletpoof evidence that we need more guns and that "guns save lives."

news item:

Quote :

WASHINGTON
As many as 12 people were killed at the Washington Navy Yard on early Monday morning after a gunman opened fire on workers streaming in to start their day, Washington officials said.

The suspected gunman also died in the incident at the Naval Sea Systems Command building. He has been identified as Aaron Alexis, age 34, from Fort Worth, Texas.

A law enforcement official told CBS News' Pat Milton the suspected shooter apparently had a handgun, an AR-15 assault rifle, and a shotgun with him and was wearing dark blue clothing.

edge540 wrote:

Quote :

"The largest study of gun violence in the United States, released Thursday afternoon, confirms a point that should be obvious: widespread American gun ownership is fueling America’s gun violence epidemic."

 No shit.

Quote :

3-year-old boy shot, killed in mobile home

Stan Maddux Times Correspondent

A 3-year-old boy was fatally shot Sunday afternoon inside a mobile home outside Michigan City.

LaPorte County and Michigan City police about 3:30 p.m. responded to Terrace Acres on U.S. 20 just west of Hitchcock Street.

Police were at the scene Sunday night investigating the circumstances leading up to the shooting, said LaPorte County Chief Deputy Coroner Mark Huffman.

The child was shot in a single wide mobile home on Farmington Drive.

Yes, we need moar gunz!


Pictured above are the most stupid and ignorant creatures on the planet.

Man, you're so negative! "Anti-gunners" like you just don't get it.  This kid's death doesn't count, because um.. See, this gun owner was "irresponsible."  You can't blame it on the guns, no matter how many kids are killed.  Just another irresponsible gun owner.  Nothing to see here... Fuhgeddaboudit!

Artie60438 wrote:

So 2 gun psychos walk into a farmers market...
Police Halt Two Men With Assault Rifles Outside Farmers Market — Now The Men Might Sue

Quote :

Earlier this month, two men decided to wander into a crowded farmers market in Appleton, Wisconsin each with an AR-15 assault rifle strapped across their back. They did not make it to the market. After several residents called 911, expressing concerns about the two gun-toting men. Police briefly detained the men, with at least one officer drawing his weapon after they determined that the assault rifles were real. The men were briefly handcuffed and detained but were eventually released without citations.

Although open carry is legal in Wisconsin, police say they stopped the men to prevent a panic — “walking into a farmers market filled with a couple thousand individuals would be a recipe for disaster.” Yet the a county attorney told the Appleton Post-Crescent that the men could not be charged because “they had not made it to the farmers market” at the point when they were stopped and the men are reportedly considering a lawsuit against the police. In video of the men’s encounter with the police, one of the men tells an officer that they are carrying a highly visible pair of assault rifles into a crowded public market for “self defense.”

Yeah. Well I guess that a farmer's market is neither inherently more safe nor inherently  less safe than any other place... "at any given time." So I guess that they should have been allowed to carry whatever weaponry that they felt they needed into the market.  After all, the threat of violence is ever present, random, and unexpected...

It's certainly not "impossible" that they might have met up with a gang of hoodlums bent on mayhem hanging around the sweet corn.

Scorpion wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

So 2 gun psychos walk into a farmers market...
Police Halt Two Men With Assault Rifles Outside Farmers Market — Now The Men Might Sue

Quote :

Earlier this month, two men decided to wander into a crowded farmers market in Appleton, Wisconsin each with an AR-15 assault rifle strapped across their back. They did not make it to the market. After several residents called 911, expressing concerns about the two gun-toting men. Police briefly detained the men, with at least one officer drawing his weapon after they determined that the assault rifles were real. The men were briefly handcuffed and detained but were eventually released without citations.

Although open carry is legal in Wisconsin, police say they stopped the men to prevent a panic — “walking into a farmers market filled with a couple thousand individuals would be a recipe for disaster.” Yet the a county attorney told the Appleton Post-Crescent that the men could not be charged because “they had not made it to the farmers market” at the point when they were stopped and the men are reportedly considering a lawsuit against the police. In video of the men’s encounter with the police, one of the men tells an officer that they are carrying a highly visible pair of assault rifles into a crowded public market for “self defense.”

Yeah. Well I guess that a farmer's market is neither inherently more safe nor inherently  less safe than any other place... "at any given time." So I guess that they should have been allowed to carry whatever weaponry that they felt they needed into the market.  After all, the threat of violence is ever present, random, and unexpected...

It's certainly not "impossible" that they might have met up with a gang of hoodlums bent on mayhem hanging around the sweet corn.

Same goes for a golf tournament,Scorpion...
Police: Man with gun arrested at golf tournament gate

Quote :

A man was arrested at the BMW Championship in Lake Forest after police said he attempted to bring a concealed firearm into the golf tournament.

Police said two additional firearms were later found in the man’s car.

The man was stopped at the entrance “as part of the routine security procedures” and taken into custody shortly after the gates opened at 7 a.m. Monday at Conway Farms Golf Club, authorities said. Police then focused their attention to the man’s car, which was parked in a remote lot near the golf club.

Police said a trained explosives canine from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms detected “suspicious substances” in a vehicle owned by the man. Explosives technicians and the Waukegan Fire Department used a remotely controlled robot to search the car but found no explosives, police said in a press release. However, they said two more guns were recovered from the car.

Scorpion wrote:

After all, the threat of violence is ever present, random, and unexpected...

For sure...You never know what these golfers are packing in those bags besides golf clubs. A bogey or two might just be all it takes to set off a shooting rampage.

Artie60438 wrote:

Scorpion wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

So 2 gun psychos walk into a farmers market...
Police Halt Two Men With Assault Rifles Outside Farmers Market — Now The Men Might Sue

Quote :

Earlier this month, two men decided to wander into a crowded farmers market in Appleton, Wisconsin each with an AR-15 assault rifle strapped across their back. They did not make it to the market. After several residents called 911, expressing concerns about the two gun-toting men. Police briefly detained the men, with at least one officer drawing his weapon after they determined that the assault rifles were real. The men were briefly handcuffed and detained but were eventually released without citations.

Although open carry is legal in Wisconsin, police say they stopped the men to prevent a panic — “walking into a farmers market filled with a couple thousand individuals would be a recipe for disaster.” Yet the a county attorney told the Appleton Post-Crescent that the men could not be charged because “they had not made it to the farmers market” at the point when they were stopped and the men are reportedly considering a lawsuit against the police. In video of the men’s encounter with the police, one of the men tells an officer that they are carrying a highly visible pair of assault rifles into a crowded public market for “self defense.”

Yeah. Well I guess that a farmer's market is neither inherently more safe nor inherently  less safe than any other place... "at any given time." So I guess that they should have been allowed to carry whatever weaponry that they felt they needed into the market.  After all, the threat of violence is ever present, random, and unexpected...

It's certainly not "impossible" that they might have met up with a gang of hoodlums bent on mayhem hanging around the sweet corn.

Same goes for a golf tournament,Scorpion...
Police: Man with gun arrested at golf tournament gate

Quote :

A man was arrested at the BMW Championship in Lake Forest after police said he attempted to bring a concealed firearm into the golf tournament.

Police said two additional firearms were later found in the man’s car.

The man was stopped at the entrance “as part of the routine security procedures” and taken into custody shortly after the gates opened at 7 a.m. Monday at Conway Farms Golf Club, authorities said. Police then focused their attention to the man’s car, which was parked in a remote lot near the golf club.

Police said a trained explosives canine from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms detected “suspicious substances” in a vehicle owned by the man. Explosives technicians and the Waukegan Fire Department used a remotely controlled robot to search the car but found no explosives, police said in a press release. However, they said two more guns were recovered from the car.

Scorpion wrote:

After all, the threat of violence is ever present, random, and unexpected...

For sure...You never know what these golfers are packing in those bags besides golf clubs. A bogey or two might just be all it takes to set off a shooting rampage.

Oh, absolutely.  I can't believe those "anti-gunner" Nazis arrested this guy.  They even brought in dogs and robots. Do you believe that shit?  I'm sure that he was just carrying around a gun for "self defense."  Because you know, you can never be too careful...

A golf tournament, even one in Lake Forest, is neither inherently more safe nor inherently less safe than any other place... "at any given time."  That's just the nature of violence... random, and unexpected...  

It would be far, far safer if the authorities would just allow the general public to bring in whatever weaponry they feel that they need for self protection.

Two concealed carry permit holders shoot and kill each other in Michigan

Quote :

There's a story out of Michigan where two gun owners got involved in a case of road rage, and ended up shooting and killing each other.

   

Quote :

Two drivers are dead after a road rage incident escalated into a shootout. The incident happened around 6:45p.m. Wednesday on M-66 near Steele Street.

   Witnesses tell WZZM 13 a one driver was following another driver too closely. The first driver pulled into a car wash parking lot and the other driver followed them into the parking lot.

   Witnesses say the driver of the following car fired shots, and the first driver returned fire.  Both drivers were shot and killed. Authorities say both men, ages 43 and 56, had licenses to carry concealed weapons.

Haven't heard of something like this happening before.

8:13 AM PT: There's more information from the Detroit Free Press about the shooting.  It looks like the tailgater was the one with road rage that caused everything.  Looks like the driver in front was protecting his wife and mother who were in the car with him when they were shot at by the tailgater.

10:13 AM PT: OK, more information from MLive.

Quote :

   The mother-in-law of James Pullum, one of two men who died in an apparent road-rage fueled shootout Wednesday, said her daughter and Pullum's mother witnessed the double shooting.

   The double shooting happened shortly before 7 p.m. at the Wonder Wand Car Wash at 426 S. Steele St.

   Police said the 43-year-old Pullum and the other victim, 56-year-old Robert Taylor, both pulled their vehicles into the car wash after some type of road-rage incident moments earlier.

   Both had permits to carry concealed weapons.

   After a confrontation between the two men outside of the vehicles, they exchanged shots that ended up being fatal to both men.

All right, it looks like they got out of their cars to argue before they shot each other.  That initial story made it seem like the tailgater had fired upon the family when the driver was still inside the car.

Yeah... if neither one has a gun, it probably ends with a broken nose instead of two funerals.

They also might still be alive if they didn't have CCW permits and their weapons were in plain sight.

Scorpion wrote:

Apparently arguing with Artie all the time has seriously eroded any debating abilities you may have once had...

Did he have them to begin with?  From "Obama insults the troops", his prediction of boots on the ground in Libya, to his global warming denial, and "the media's takin' our guns!", I think we've just been blinded by his ability to complete a sentence, which is leaps and bounds above the Mobys/Bachmanns of the GOP so prevalent in the media and internet forums.  Just look at his latest:

He openly acknowledges that the actions of another irresponsible gun owner led to the death of yet another child at the very same time he seems unable to comprehend how having less guns around could possibly lead to less gun deaths.  He then goes on to acknowledge that such irresponsible owners are more likely to ignore laws (and therefore be criminals) while being adamantly certain in his belief that background checks will not make us safer.  And the fact that so many other countries do not have the gun problems we do is, to him, just a magical, mystical conundrum that will never be figured out, is not worth looking into, but definitely has absolutely nothing to do with their gun policies whatsoever, and how dare you insult God, America, the Constitution, and Jesus by suggesting it!

There's absolutely no logic or reason to anything he says, which is par for the course for such a denialist.  And he is a denialist, which leads to such incoherence.  He immediately shies away from any substantive discussion involving actual facts or statistics, but will argue useless anecdotes or semantics until the sun burns out.  There's little to no attempt to actually support anything he says with evidence because a) it doesn't exist and he knows it, or worse b) he never bothered to look in the first place, which is why he's so dismissive when they're offered.

So now, here they are, arming blind people and legalizing machine guns, hearkening back to the "shoot whoever you feel threatened by" Old West, Stand Your Ground law reality, exactly as Jesus and the Founding Fathers wanted, based on absolutely nothing more than regurgitated NRA or Glen Beck conspiracy-ridden talking points.  What could possibly go wrong?  Certainly no reason it'd be more gun violence, right?   

There is no conceivable reason America can't look like this:



It doesn't because the gun lobby and their happy jacks just don't really give a shit about dead children, despite their occasional pontification to the contrary.  They, like so much of the GOP, are still just brain dead corporate/religious slaves, and don't even know it.

Heretic wrote:

There's absolutely no logic or reason to anything he says, which is par for the course for such a denialist.  And he is a denialist, which leads to such incoherence.  He immediately shies away from any substantive discussion involving actual facts or statistics, but will argue useless anecdotes or semantics until the sun burns out.  There's little to no attempt to actually support anything he says with evidence because a) it doesn't exist and he knows it, or worse b) he never bothered to look in the first place, which is why he's so dismissive when they're offered.

I've come to the conclusion that he's intellectually lazy. Period.  But to be honest, I really don't care, because I'm just tired of his whole "shtick."  It just bores the hell out of me.

Scorpion wrote:

Heretic wrote:

There's absolutely no logic or reason to anything he says, which is par for the course for such a denialist.  And he is a denialist, which leads to such incoherence.  He immediately shies away from any substantive discussion involving actual facts or statistics, but will argue useless anecdotes or semantics until the sun burns out.  There's little to no attempt to actually support anything he says with evidence because a) it doesn't exist and he knows it, or worse b) he never bothered to look in the first place, which is why he's so dismissive when they're offered.

I've come to the conclusion that he's intellectually lazy. Period.  But to be honest, I really don't care, because I'm just tired of his whole "shtick."  It just bores the hell out of me.

Now you know why I finally decided to ignore him. He has become nothing more than a garden variety troll,never offering anything of substance,but constantly attempting to set-up straw man arguments for endless questioning.  

Years ago he wasn't like this. You could actually have an honest discussion with him. Perhaps his current behavior is the result of spending too much time listening to right-wing hate radio and visiting sites that just lie and tell righties what they want to hear irregardless of whether it's true.