Green Energy in Hammond oh my

Posts : 2214

mike3775 wrote:

sparks wrote:

mike3775 wrote:: Gm recently announced they are putting the plant for the batteries(or engine) for the Volt on hold Sparks

Does not bode well for the GM version of the electric car

Mike, GM is delaying the construction of a plant in Flint that makes electric motors for the Volt. GM already has a plant in Austria that produces
those motors. They are going to introduce the Volt in 2010.

Whats wrong with what you just posted Sparks?

A big 3 US AUTOMAKER getting an engine from Austria!!!

So much for GM being an AMERICAN company. Buy GM, send your cash to Austria.

Mike
let's review this topic. you posted this statement.

Mike3775 wrote:

I am all for vehicles that do not need to use gas, just unfortunately, there is no real alternative right now, and there probably will not be for at least another 20 years or so, because of the price involved

I posted links showing at least four car makers would be selling electric cars within two years in the American marketplace, proving you wrong. GM is a multi-national company. Globally, they are the largest auto manufacturer in the world. Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru all have plants in the US. I don't think the Japanese people complain about those plants. The profits still flow back to Japan. BMW,VW and Merecedes have plants here too. The German's aren't complaining about those plants. Corporations make business decisions about how to best allocate their capital. The companies that do that best stay in business. I think it says quite a lot about the quality of American labor that so many foreign companies choose to build plants here.

Guest

BigWhiteGuy wrote:: I can't believe you people equating hydrogen fuel cells with the Hindenburg!
Ever watch the History Channel?

BWG, that is exactly what is brought up when hydrogen is mentioned. I am not saying it would happen, but that is what detractors have/will always bring up.

Just like sparks mentioned TMI is brought up when nuclear is talked about for power plants.

People will always hype the bad, even though for the bad to occur, it takes bad management to have it occur.

sparks wrote:

mike3775 wrote:

sparks wrote:

mike3775 wrote:: Gm recently announced they are putting the plant for the batteries(or engine) for the Volt on hold Sparks

Does not bode well for the GM version of the electric car

Mike, GM is delaying the construction of a plant in Flint that makes electric motors for the Volt. GM already has a plant in Austria that produces
those motors. They are going to introduce the Volt in 2010.

Whats wrong with what you just posted Sparks?

A big 3 US AUTOMAKER getting an engine from Austria!!!

So much for GM being an AMERICAN company. Buy GM, send your cash to Austria.

Mike
let's review this topic. you posted this statement.

Mike3775 wrote:

I am all for vehicles that do not need to use gas, just unfortunately, there is no real alternative right now, and there probably will not be for at least another 20 years or so, because of the price involved

I posted links showing at least four car makers would be selling electric cars within two years in the American marketplace, proving you wrong. GM is a multi-national company. Globally, they are the largest auto manufacturer in the world. Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru all have plants in the US. I don't think the Japanese people complain about those plants. The profits still flow back to Japan. BMW,VW and Merecedes have plants here too. The German's aren't complaining about those plants. Corporations make business decisions about how to best allocate their capital. The companies that do that best stay in business. I think it says quite a lot about the quality of American labor that so many foreign companies choose to build plants here.

Sparks, in another thread, I mentioned how nothing is American made. And you provided how an AMERICAN car company, that just got a tax payer financed bailout, is using FOREIGN engines in an AMERICAN TAXPAYER BAILED OUT car. How come GM bailed on the AMERICAN version of the plant? They cited costs and the economy.

Sparks, for an American car company to claim "poor me", and need a bailout, they should be trying to preserve as many american jobs as possible don;t you think? Not outsourcing them to Austria. I wouldn't be surprisedif the Volt is only assembled in the US, while everything else is made out of the country

And the electric car like the Volt, will not gain in appeal like they hope for either, because until a car can go over a set limit of miles on a single charge, no one in the US will buy them in droves, which will bring the price to produce them down either. Much the same reason renewable energy power plants never gain traction, regardless of the talk, because the costs are way to high to justify it.

Posts : 689

Center-Right wrote:: http://nwi.com/articles/2009/01/31/news/lake_county/docdc092982cd8b9ae88625754f00102115.txt

Green technology (wind, solar, bio, water,ect.) will expand not eliminate traditional energy productions needs, it will allow other undeveloped country to meet their countries energy needs by reducing cost constraints that keeps energy cost out of reach of others around world.
Future energy job market will also open other energy producing techniques; and they too will expand the energy market place further.
As far as up front cost; yes there is a up hill cost curves involved but with any new entry into the market place those cost come down as markets adjust to supply/ demand, needs verses wants; which will establishes a base cost to consumers.
As far as the pay off to home owners, small businessmen and women; picture pocketing 30, 40, and 50%, of the money you are now spending heating your home or office.
Let me put it this way “More people with more of their own hard earn dollars back in their pocket, that is something most consumers would gladly get behind; It would definitely stimulate our economy and put the U.S.A back in the energy ex-port game.On the flip side
Consumer spending has always been and will always be the back bone of any successful economy,reducing cost to American consumers is the key to any economic turn around.

http://nwi.com/articles/2009/01/31/news/lake_county/docdc092982cd8b9ae88625754f00102115.txt

But wait! An intelligent response. I predicted someone with brains would have issue with this "Science Fair Project".

Quote :: Hammond should choose other site for wind turbines

| Saturday, February 28, 2009
Please leave a message for Hammond City Council members at (219) 853-6404 and urge them to reject the Hammond Port Authority's request to build two wind turbines in Forsythe Park and Wolf Lake Memorial Park at Wolf Lake.

At issue is the placement of wind turbines, particularly the 115-foot tall turbines, which can be a fatal hazard to birds and therefore should be avoided in migratory stopovers. The Port Authority used old information dating back to 2001 from a California Audubon Society report and a person in Oklahoma to bolster their position that the turbines won't harm birds.

The Hammond Bird Sanctuary, George and Wolf Lakes are listed as a State Line-Calumet Region, National Audubon Society Important Bird Area, and the area is connected to the Chicago Region Birding Trail. Many conservationists worked years to create these birding designations to help the image of Hammond as something resembling a green environment.

The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service recommended in a Jan. 27 letter that the Hammond Port Authority conduct an environmental impact study before the project is finalized to evaluate the likely impacts of the proposed turbine height and design on migrating birds, specifically with regard to blade collisions or site avoidance.

The Chicago side of Wolf Lake is a beautiful Illinois Department of Natural Resources Fish and Wildlife Area. Hammond's wind turbines will not showcase the city's efforts toward a green environment but will instead highlight a total disregard for wildlife.

Chicago Audubon Society urges Hammond to consider alternate places for the two wind turbines for this costly project that won't save much energy.

Carolyn A. Marsh, Chicago Audubon Society, Whiting

Posts : 312

If it was up to me the birds would be flying into condominiums!

Posts : 689

voter3 wrote:: If it was up to me the birds would be flying into condominiums!

Condominiums? In Hammond? Near Wolf Lake? Right.
That's as funny as condominiums in Calumet City!
(like putting an elevator in an outhouse)

Posts : 312

Whats so funny about that?

I was talking about Lake Michigan near the bird sanctuary but Wolf Lake would be fine.

Posts : 18

I am glad to see that this topic has been revived.

Thanks, Voter. :thanks:

What does the community think ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/business/15novel.html?_r=2&em

Guest

Like most things in life, renewable energy is a complex issue that can't be measured in just dollars. I think that based on the overall benefit, this is good idea.

Posts : 689

Center-Right wrote:: I am glad to see that this topic has been revived.

Thanks, Voter. :thanks:

What does the community think ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/business/15novel.html?_r=2&em

In this geographic location, wind and solar are not dependable alternatives. For wind to be practical, a windmill farm could be built on a man made island in Lake Michigan, about 2 miles off shore. Otherwise a windmill farm would be too obstructed to be practical. And that's on a good day of wind. I know there's an article on the internet, and if I find it again, I will post a link. It outlines a design for this area, (Hammond, Southside of Chicago, etc.)

Guest

BWG, if we were talking about commercial production you would be correct. But this actually more along the lines of residential production, which has very different requirements.
And you are wrong about solar, thin film solar integrated into the roofs of houses could, depending on lifestyle, provide most of the electricity needed for a home.

Posts : 689

voter3 wrote:: Whats so funny about that?

I was talking about Lake Michigan near the bird sanctuary but Wolf Lake would be fine.

The "demographics" would not support it. You'd need more than a downtown Hammond beautification project to lure back any group that would support such a project.

Posts : 689

Bill B wrote:: BWG, if we were talking about commercial production you would be correct. But this actually more along the lines of residential production, which has very different requirements.
And you are wrong about solar, thin film solar integrated into the roofs of houses could, depending on lifestyle, provide most of the electricity needed for a home.

We would have to come a very long way in electrical storage technology, because frankly we do not have enough solar and wind days in this area. Geothermal is more practical, and is being utilized in many new and retro fitted single family homes. Our area is just not wide open enough for wind power, and on a small residential application, is worse. Do you get straight line winds on a constant basis? I don't think so. Even your neighbors house obstructs your wind. Even your garage. And that wind would have to be constantly over 15 to 20 knots per hour.

Posts : 312

http://www.helixwind.com/en/

Sometimes you have to be able to accept that what you picture in your mind is not necessarily what is being talked about.

Posts : 689

voter3 wrote:: http://www.helixwind.com/en/

Sometimes you have to be able to accept that what you picture in your mind is not necessarily what is being talked about.

The HELIX has been around a long time. I remember getting literature about it five years ago. It hasn't "taken off". How many residential wind turbines (other than roof top units powering exhaust fans) have you seen?

Posts : 312

None!

But the fact that we are having this conversation and the current state of affairs certainly could help this option "take off".

Posts : 1545

What if this happens when there are a lot of people around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hTiNiQtPjM

Posts : 18

B.W.G
You are right about the ability of any energy producing unit to store power (when there is either no wind or sun light.)
Battery technology is the central issues, no dought about that.

Lets expand the conversation to what technology is out there now or is on the drawing boards.

You also make a very good point when you state the question;

"Our area is just not wide open enough for wind power, and on a small residential application, is worse."

My reply, Hammond should study and take inventory of it's geographic/ topogaphy potential in producing energy that in turn can attract investment capital to Hammond.
Another conversation ,altogether.

Posts : 312

If you a re looking to rid yourself of NIPSCO altogether then I agree there is not enough wind power. If you are trying to lessen the pain of writing that check every month then these options should be made more accessible.

Posts : 689

voter3 wrote:: If you a re looking to rid yourself of NIPSCO altogether then I agree there is not enough wind power. If you are trying to lessen the pain of writing that check every month then these options should be made more accessible.

But, do you know what the initial investment of a residential turbine unit costs? It is anywhere between $2500 to $!0,000. That includes the unit(s), installation, and a new (yes new) electric meter, because the existing meter has to have the ability to calibrate the outside source of electricity. That also does NOT include costs for some new appliances. Do you honestly believe the average family in Hammond, East Chicago, or Gary will come up with that much initial cash?

Posts : 689

I'm sorry, but my figures were fairly conservative...This from the HELIX web site:

A Good Investment for Windy Landowners with High Bills
A 5-kW grid-connected residential-scale system generally costs $20-25,000 to install. The best candidates for these systems are homes and businesses with at least a half acre of property, a Class 3 or better wind resource, and utility bills averaging $150 per month or more. If a net metering arrangement is available from the utility, most of the power generated by a grid-connected system can be valued at the retail rate of electricity, reducing the amount of time it takes for a system to pay for itself.

Posts : 689

Robin Banks wrote:: What if this happens when there are a lot of people around:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hTiNiQtPjM

I'm surprised nobody has posted the YouTube video of the Hindenburg blowing up.

Posts : 1545

just wait....

Posts : 689

This site will answer all of your wind power questions...
http://www.awea.org/

Posts : 312

BigWhiteGuy wrote:

voter3 wrote:: If you a re looking to rid yourself of NIPSCO altogether then I agree there is not enough wind power. If you are trying to lessen the pain of writing that check every month then these options should be made more accessible.

But, do you know what the initial investment of a residential turbine unit costs? It is anywhere between $2500 to $!0,000. That includes the unit(s), installation, and a new (yes new) electric meter, because the existing meter has to have the ability to calibrate the outside source of electricity. That also does NOT include costs for some new appliances. Do you honestly believe the average family in Hammond, East Chicago, or Gary will come up with that much initial cash?

Well if the President wants to spend some money an alternate energy sources $700 billion would put up a lot of Helix's. Just what did you think I meant by more accessible.

Posts : 689

voter3 wrote:: Well if the President wants to spend some money an alternate energy sources $700 billion would put up a lot of Helix's. Just what did you think I meant by more accessible.

Who or whom is supposed to make it more accessible? Certainly not NIPSCo. Or the City of Hammond. What, the U.S. Dept. of Energy?
Looking at a map of Indiana, this area is not very condusive to wind or solar (unless tied to a grid). That would involve more energy companies and yes, more politics.