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Heretic

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PostSubject: The Debt Ceiling   12/1/2010, 9:23 am

So I've heard a lot on the possible ramifications of not raising the debt ceiling, some that are pretty dire. Now as much as I love doom and gloom scenarios, I really don't know anything about this. Is there any validity to them? Sure, a lot of Republicans in office are demonstrably retarded, but they're politicians; I have a hard time believing that they will do something that will have such an immediate and negative effect on our economy, completely ruining whatever chance they had in the next few elections in the process.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/1/2010, 1:01 pm

Heretic wrote:
So I've heard a lot on the possible ramifications of not raising the debt ceiling, some that are pretty dire. Now as much as I love doom and gloom scenarios, I really don't know anything about this. Is there any validity to them? Sure, a lot of Republicans in office are demonstrably retarded, but they're politicians; I have a hard time believing that they will do something that will have such an immediate and negative effect on our economy, completely ruining whatever chance they had in the next few elections in the process.

Excellent topic.

I think that they will "shut down" the government, probably sometime next year. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'll post some stuff on this when I have a chance.

I don't know if they will actually refuse to raise the debt ceiling, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the Republicans aren't going to cooperate on anything unless they get their way...

The latest example...

GOP says it'll block bills until tax cuts extended

Quote :
Senate Republicans threatened Wednesday to block virtually all legislation until expiring tax cuts are extended and a bill is passed to fund the federal government, vastly complicating Democratic attempts to leave their own stamp on the final days of the post-election Congress.

"While there are other items that might ultimately be worthy of the Senate's attention, we cannot agree to prioritize any matters above the critical issues of funding the government and preventing a job-killing tax hike," all 42 GOP senators wrote in a letter to Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. The 42 signatures are more than enough to block action on almost any item he wishes to advance.

Doesn't sound like there is room for any sort of compromise, does it?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/1/2010, 2:15 pm

Scorpion wrote:

Excellent topic.
i agree

Quote :
I think that they will "shut down" the government, probably sometime next year. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'll post some stuff on this when I have a chance.
Looking forward to it. Your analysis,not the shut-down Smile
Quote :
I don't know if they will actually refuse to raise the debt ceiling, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the Republicans aren't going to cooperate on anything unless they get their way...

The latest example...

GOP says it'll block bills until tax cuts extended

Quote :
Senate Republicans threatened Wednesday to block virtually all legislation until expiring tax cuts are extended and a bill is passed to fund the federal government, vastly complicating Democratic attempts to leave their own stamp on the final days of the post-election Congress.

"While there are other items that might ultimately be worthy of the Senate's attention, we cannot agree to prioritize any matters above the critical issues of funding the government and preventing a job-killing tax hike," all 42 GOP senators wrote in a letter to Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. The 42 signatures are more than enough to block action on almost any item he wishes to advance.

Doesn't sound like there is room for any sort of compromise, does it?
The next 2 years are going to be miserable while the Repuplicans remind everyone why they lost in 2008 so badly.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/6/2010, 1:02 pm

Yeah. Well I've read lots of stuff about the possibility of a government shutdown, but this article from Politico covers it nicely...

Another 1995-style government shutdown?

Here are some excerpts, but the whole article is worth a read...

Quote :
The head of the influential Americans for Tax Reform is encouraging the new House Republican majority to adopt a take-no-prisoners approach to federal spending — and if that leads to a 1995-style government shutdown, so be it.

Midterm voters “were voting to stop the Obama spendathon, and that’s what people were sent to Washington to do,” Norquist said in an interview for POLITICO’s “Taxing America” video series.

The incoming Speaker of the House, John Boehner,remembers what happened the last time the GOP played this game, and would most likely prefer to avoid it this time around, but it's highly doubtful that he will be able to stop the momentum.

Quote :
But even as Boehner is sticking with a humble, postelection message, others in his caucus are gearing up to take on spending measures. Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) is pressing to insert language in every appropriations bill denying any use of money to implement or enforce the health care reform law. It’s a tactic that could lead to a string of presidential vetoes and departmental shutdowns.

These nut jobs are actually insisting on that all Republicans take a "blood oath" to shut down the government if they don't get 100% of their demands met. I just hope that Obama and the Democrats are willing to call them on it. The last thing I want to see is for Obama to cave in to their threats.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/6/2010, 6:02 pm

Scorpion wrote:
Yeah. Well I've read lots of stuff about the possibility of a government shutdown, but this article from Politico covers it nicely...

Another 1995-style government shutdown?

Here are some excerpts, but the whole article is worth a read...

Quote :
The head of the influential Americans for Tax Reform is encouraging the new House Republican majority to adopt a take-no-prisoners approach to federal spending — and if that leads to a 1995-style government shutdown, so be it.

Midterm voters “were voting to stop the Obama spendathon, and that’s what people were sent to Washington to do,” Norquist said in an interview for POLITICO’s “Taxing America” video series.

The incoming Speaker of the House, John Boehner,remembers what happened the last time the GOP played this game, and would most likely prefer to avoid it this time around, but it's highly doubtful that he will be able to stop the momentum.

Quote :
But even as Boehner is sticking with a humble, postelection message, others in his caucus are gearing up to take on spending measures. Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) is pressing to insert language in every appropriations bill denying any use of money to implement or enforce the health care reform law. It’s a tactic that could lead to a string of presidential vetoes and departmental shutdowns.

These nut jobs are actually insisting on that all Republicans take a "blood oath" to shut down the government if they don't get 100% of their demands met. I just hope that Obama and the Democrats are willing to call them on it. The last thing I want to see is for Obama to cave in to their threats.

Let's face the facts...if you can't pay cash, you can't afford it. I am so sick of the bashing between both parties. I am also sick of our POTUS taking vacations, golf outings, playing basketball, hosting parties, etc.

Set an example as a POTUS and forget the upcoming vacation. All I can remember about his presidency are the golf outings, the vacations, the basketball and golf. Also the parties every Weds. Don't you all think, Demo or whether Repo if the POTUS was either, he would be huddled down and attacking affairs that need attention rather than making campaign appearances..hosting parties, etc.

Seriously! My opinion is yes, he has the personality of a charmer. Experience? None. Both sides of the aisle are frustrated because he doesn't have the experience nor the leadership to guide our country.

Want to know how I really feel? He entered this with an ego, and no experience or background...just just inspiring talk. That is why I see even Demobrats and Repo's frustrated with him.

Name one damn thing he's done that put his past campaign speeches in effect. Nothing. Look at how tired and drained Hillary is compared to how refreshing and most immaculate Condaleeza Rice appeared compared to Hillary when visiting foreign nations. Hillary looks haggard, worn down, can't seem to even look presentable. Rice was strong on hold, and presented and represented the U.S. in a very presentable diplomatic, intelligent, on-top-of-things compared to this administration.

Heck, I had more admiration for Rice than I did Bush. And I don't vote straight.

Our country has disintegrated since POTUS took over. He is not a leader. He is not what he told people he was, or was capable of.

All I see in the back of my mind, and read on a lot of occasions, his bowling, his golfing, his parties, his vacations...never could remember so much sports being reported on a POTUS in my life.

What exactly has he accomplished? The Healthcare is not going to go through. The things he should be doing is staying in Washington, D.C. in his Oval Office and working all day...instead he campaigned, vacationed, etc.

And his wife has the nerve to tell you what to feed your kids. Communist country is what it seems like, R or D. It's gotten so out of hand, I keep dreaming of my 1970s' when we kids didn't even know our parents had it so bad...and they had no charge cards.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/6/2010, 6:33 pm

UrRight wrote:

Name one damn thing he's done that put his past campaign speeches in effect. Nothing.
What exactly has he accomplished?
This should put your nonsensical allegations to rest... Obama Administration’s Achievements (Thus Far)

After you've read it,please have the decency to admit that your allegations are wrong.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/9/2010, 10:42 am

Yeah. Well don't hold your breath waiting for a retraction, Artie.

It's actually pretty amazing what Obama has managed to accomplish, especially given the dire circumstances that existed when he took office.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/9/2010, 12:27 pm

What would the direct effects of not raising the debt ceiling be? Is that the government "shut down"? I've heard some dire predictions of American defaulting on its debt, economic collapse, etc., but like I said, they seem silly.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/9/2010, 1:38 pm

Heretic wrote:
What would the direct effects of not raising the debt ceiling be? Is that the government "shut down"? I've heard some dire predictions of American defaulting on its debt, economic collapse, etc., but like I said, they seem silly.

I would agree, but the GOP has done this before...right after they took back the House in 1994. Here is what could happen if they do it today...

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/11/01/steele-debt-ceiling/

Quote :
– Government Shutdown: The budgetary implications of failing to increase the debt ceiling would result in “the immediate cessation of more than 40 percent of all federal government activities (excluding only interest payments on the national debt), including Social Security, military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, homeland security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance.”

– Default on the National Debt: During the previous GOP-induced debt ceiling crises in 1995-96, the Treasury Department used extraordinary measures to avoid defaulting on the national debt. Deutsche Bank analysts believe that those same measures would be less effective today and the government would “not be able to stave off a government shutdown (or possible suspension of bond payments) for long.”

– Worldwide Financial Panic: “Refusing to raise the debt ceiling would recklessly disrupt the sale and purchase of new Treasury bonds, and could potentially cause a run on outstanding Treasurys as well, as investors sought other investments. This could have catastrophic consequences for our economy as well as the economic stability of the rest of the world.”

– Economic Catastrophe: Suddenly pulling trillions of dollars in public spending out of the economy, as well as inducing a worldwide financial panic and a run on U.S. sovereign debt would “almost certainly result in a severe drop in economic growth and employment” and could potentially “take us into a Second Great Depression.”

– Actually Increase Long-Term Deficits and Debt: By undermining the credit worthiness of U.S. government, annual borrowing costs would skyrocket. A mere doubling of the current rate the government pays for a 10-year Treasury note would nearly double the cost of annual interest payments on the national debt to approximately $600 billion—increasing long-term deficits and fueling even more high-cost borrowing. If investors begin pricing a “fear premium” into U.S. debt, costs could be driven even higher.

Is the GOP really willing to risk such drastic consequences? If history is any guide, then the answer is yeah, they are. However, if the proposed tax deal actually gets passed, I think it's less likely that they will vote against raising the debt ceiling, since this deal actually increases the debt. It would be very difficult to justify voting against raising the debt limit so soon after voting to increase the national debt.

There's a nice write up by issued by the Center for American Progress on this subject, if you're interested...

The Big Freeze
The Conservative Pledge to Freeze the Debt Ceiling Is a Looming Disaster


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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/10/2010, 7:47 am

Thanks!
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/13/2010, 4:25 pm

Hey guys...take it like my gram taught me..."that dust will be there, looong after I'm gone!!!"

(Referring to her daughter yelling at her while she was 89 digging worms, splitting them in half, asking customers to "sit down and talk a spell, got some beer here!" Rather than dust and sweep floors.)

One time she slapped a moth to death and threw him on the floor. Reached in her pretzels and kept on talking...with all the germs....she lived 'til 92.

Forget about politics. It's like dusting and sweeping.

Better to sell worms and pocket the cash. I just got a big ole' fish tank...gonna raise minnows this summer.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/15/2010, 2:47 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
UrRight wrote:

Name one damn thing he's done that put his past campaign speeches in effect. Nothing.
What exactly has he accomplished?
This should put your nonsensical allegations to rest... Obama Administration’s Achievements (Thus Far)

After you've read it,please have the decency to admit that your allegations are wrong.

Yeah. Well I guess you got your answer, Artie... "it's better to sell worms and pocket the cash."

Honestly, In all my years of posting, I've never encountered anyone (except maybe hard core trolls) who posted stuff as crazy as this tripe.

I'll take Happy Jack and Lois over this "poster" any day. What do you think?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/15/2010, 7:39 pm

Scorpion wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
UrRight wrote:

Name one damn thing he's done that put his past campaign speeches in effect. Nothing.
What exactly has he accomplished?
This should put your nonsensical allegations to rest... Obama Administration’s Achievements (Thus Far)

After you've read it,please have the decency to admit that your allegations are wrong.

Yeah. Well I guess you got your answer, Artie... "it's better to sell worms and pocket the cash."

Honestly, In all my years of posting, I've never encountered anyone (except maybe hard core trolls) who posted stuff as crazy as this tripe.
There's plenty of people who people on wingnut sites that believe the exact same things and a lot worse.

Quote :
I'll take Happy Jack and Lois over this "poster" any day. What do you think?
No thanks. IMO,both are dishonest and came here with an agenda other than engaging in rational discussion.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/15/2010, 8:08 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:

This should put your nonsensical allegations to rest... Obama Administration’s Achievements (Thus Far)

After you've read it,please have the decency to admit that your allegations are wrong.

Yeah. Well I guess you got your answer, Artie... "it's better to sell worms and pocket the cash."

Honestly, In all my years of posting, I've never encountered anyone (except maybe hard core trolls) who posted stuff as crazy as this tripe.
There's plenty of people who people on wingnut sites that believe the exact same things and a lot worse.


Actually, I was referring to this tripe...

UrRight wrote:
Hey guys...take it like my gram taught me..."that dust will be there, looong after I'm gone!!!"

(Referring to her daughter yelling at her while she was 89 digging worms, splitting them in half, asking customers to "sit down and talk a spell, got some beer here!" Rather than dust and sweep floors.)

One time she slapped a moth to death and threw him on the floor. Reached in her pretzels and kept on talking...with all the germs....she lived 'til 92.

Forget about politics. It's like dusting and sweeping.

Better to sell worms and pocket the cash. I just got a big ole' fish tank...gonna raise minnows this summer.

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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/15/2010, 8:17 pm

Scorpion wrote:

Actually, I was referring to this tripe...

UrRight wrote:
Hey guys...take it like my gram taught me..."that dust will be there, looong after I'm gone!!!"

(Referring to her daughter yelling at her while she was 89 digging worms, splitting them in half, asking customers to "sit down and talk a spell, got some beer here!" Rather than dust and sweep floors.)

One time she slapped a moth to death and threw him on the floor. Reached in her pretzels and kept on talking...with all the germs....she lived 'til 92.

Forget about politics. It's like dusting and sweeping.

Better to sell worms and pocket the cash. I just got a big ole' fish tank...gonna raise minnows this summer.

Either I missed that or I just filtered it out. I try to ignore the personal anecdotes.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/16/2010, 4:32 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

Actually, I was referring to this tripe...

UrRight wrote:
Hey guys...take it like my gram taught me..."that dust will be there, looong after I'm gone!!!"

(Referring to her daughter yelling at her while she was 89 digging worms, splitting them in half, asking customers to "sit down and talk a spell, got some beer here!" Rather than dust and sweep floors.)

One time she slapped a moth to death and threw him on the floor. Reached in her pretzels and kept on talking...with all the germs....she lived 'til 92.

Forget about politics. It's like dusting and sweeping.

Better to sell worms and pocket the cash. I just got a big ole' fish tank...gonna raise minnows this summer.

Either I missed that or I just filtered it out. I try to ignore the personal anecdotes.

Yeah. I usually do manage to ignore the anecdotal crap, but I guess that sometimes I get so disgusted with the level of ignorance being displayed that I need to vent. This "worms and minnows" post was just way over the top, and it sure as hell doesn't belong on a National Forum
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: The Debt Ceiling   12/16/2010, 7:54 pm

I feel better about myself - didn't understand that post either.
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