... and just because a crime cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't mean that a crime wasn't committed...
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but just because a crime cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't mean that a crime was committed. I'm looking forward to the release of the actual report.
In the past 24 hours, Trump — who will be 74 in November 2020 and is “tired,” according to aides — has:
Falsely declared multiple times that his father was born in Germany. (Fred Trump was born in New York.)
Declared that wind turbines cause cancer.
Confused “origins” and “oranges” in asking reporters to look into the “oranges of the Mueller report.”
Told Republicans to be more “paranoid” about vote-counting.
He is increasingly incoherent. The Post quotes him at a Republican event on Tuesday:
“We’re going into the war with some socialist. It looks like the only non, sort of, heavy socialist is being taken care of pretty well by the socialists, they got to him, our former vice president. I was going to call him, I don’t know him well, I was going to say ‘Welcome to the world Joe, you having a good time?'”
Even when attempting to defend himself, he emits spurts of disconnected thoughts. “Now you look at that [presidential announcement] speech and you see what’s happening and that speech was so tame compared to what is happening now, that trek up is one of the great treacherous treks anywhere, and Mexico has now, because they don’t want the border closed.”
I don't know what's wrong with him, but I think it's time to face the reality of the situation. People really need to start paying attention to his mental state... because I really don't think that things aren't going to get any better...
In the past 24 hours, Trump — who will be 74 in November 2020 and is “tired,” according to aides — has:
Falsely declared multiple times that his father was born in Germany. (Fred Trump was born in New York.)
Declared that wind turbines cause cancer.
Confused “origins” and “oranges” in asking reporters to look into the “oranges of the Mueller report.”
Told Republicans to be more “paranoid” about vote-counting.
He is increasingly incoherent. The Post quotes him at a Republican event on Tuesday:
“We’re going into the war with some socialist. It looks like the only non, sort of, heavy socialist is being taken care of pretty well by the socialists, they got to him, our former vice president. I was going to call him, I don’t know him well, I was going to say ‘Welcome to the world Joe, you having a good time?'”
Even when attempting to defend himself, he emits spurts of disconnected thoughts. “Now you look at that [presidential announcement] speech and you see what’s happening and that speech was so tame compared to what is happening now, that trek up is one of the great treacherous treks anywhere, and Mexico has now, because they don’t want the border closed.”
I don't know what's wrong with him, but I think it's time to face the reality of the situation. People really need to start paying attention to his mental state... because I really don't think that things aren't going to get any better...
…. and we have yet another greased pig to chase. Go on, boy - git that pig!!!!
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/4/2019, 7:26 am
happy jack wrote:
And if the memo is inaccurately portraying the actual report, I think that Mueller or one of his undoubtedly numerous assistants would have spoken up by now.
Some of Robert S. Mueller III’s investigators have told associates that Attorney General William P. Barr failed to adequately portray the findings of their inquiry and that they were more troubling for President Trump than Mr. Barr indicated, according to government officials and others familiar with their simmering frustrations.
. . .
Mr. Barr has said he will move quickly to release the nearly 400-page report but needs time to scrub out confidential information. The special counsel’s investigators had already written multiple summaries of the report, and some team members believe that Mr. Barr should have included more of their material in the four-page letter he wrote on March 24 laying out their main conclusions, according to government officials familiar with the investigation. Mr. Barr only briefly cited the special counsel’s work in his letter.
Some on Mueller’s Team Say Report Was More Damaging Than Barr Revealed
WASHINGTON — Some of Robert S. Mueller III’s investigators have told associates that Attorney General William P. Barr failed to adequately portray the findings of their inquiry and that they were more troubling for President Trump than Mr. Barr indicated, according to government officials and others familiar with their simmering frustrations.
"Some …. have told associates"? So, my brother is dating this girl whose cousin graduated with the sister of one of the investigators, and he really let her know whassup!!!!
Some members of Mr. Mueller’s team are concerned that, because Mr. Barr created the first narrative of the special counsel’s findings, Americans’ views will have hardened before the investigation’s conclusions become public.
Which members, and why aren't they speaking for themselves?
However, the special counsel’s office never asked Mr. Barr to release the summaries soon after he received the report, a person familiar with the investigation said.
…. a person familiar with the investigation said …. I'm a person familiar with the investigation - it's all I've heard about for two years. Why didn't anyone interview me?
Mr. Barr was also wary of departing from Justice Department practice not to disclose derogatory details in closing an investigation, according to two government officials familiar with Mr. Barr’s thinking.
…. officials familiar with Mr. Barr's way of thinking"? Reading minds now?
But according to officials familiar with the attorney general’s thinking ….
See above. Y'know, for the 'newspaper of record', they sure don't put a whole lot of thought into citing actual sources, do they? (And, incidentally - Scorpion told me just a few posts back that there was no way this could happen. Imagine my surprise.)
Scorpion
Posts : 2141
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/4/2019, 9:04 pm
happy jack wrote:
Y'know, for the 'newspaper of record', they sure don't put a whole lot of thought into citing actual sources, do they?
That's just an ignorant statement.
happy jack wrote:
(And, incidentally - Scorpion told me just a few posts back that there was no way this could happen. Imagine my surprise.)
Yeah. Well I was referring to Mueller. He ran a tight ship during the investigation. But some of the folks on the team have moved on, I guess.
But you're right... and it does appear that the "memo is inaccurately portraying the actual report."
Some members of Mr. Mueller’s team are concerned that, because Mr. Barr created the first narrative of the special counsel’s findings, Americans’ views will have hardened before the investigation’s conclusions become public.”
That’s an interesting point. There is certainly something to be said for setting the terms of the debate. If people have processed that the report doesn’t accuse Trump of crimes, perhaps they’ll look at even highly questionable behavior and simply conclude, “Well, they didn’t say it was a crime.”
Where have I heard that before?
happy jack
Posts : 6988
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/4/2019, 10:48 pm
Scorpion wrote:
If people have processed that the report doesn’t accuse Trump of crimes, perhaps they’ll look at even highly questionable behavior and simply conclude, “Well, they didn’t say it was a crime.” [/b]
Where have I heard that before?[/quote]
I'll bite - where?
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/4/2019, 11:24 pm
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
(And, incidentally - Scorpion told me just a few posts back that there was no way this could happen. Imagine my surprise.)
Yeah. Well I was referring to Mueller. He ran a tight ship during the investigation. But some of the folks on the team have moved on, I guess.
This is the first leak from the Mueller team during the entire investigation. That it comes after Barr declares victory for Trump should tell us everything we need to know.
Some members of the office were particularly disappointed that Barr did not release summary information the special counsel team had prepared, according to two people familiar with their reactions.
“There was immediate displeasure from the team when they saw how the attorney general had characterized their work instead,” according one U.S. official briefed on the matter.
Summaries were prepared for different sections of the report, with a view that they could made public, the official said.
The report was prepared “so that the front matter from each section could have been released immediately — or very quickly,” the official said. “It was done in a way that minimum redactions, if any, would have been necessary, and the work would have spoken for itself.”
Mueller’s team assumed the information was going to be made available to the public, the official said, “and so they prepared their summaries to be shared in their own words — and not in the attorney general’s summary of their work, as turned out to be the case.”
So not only is Barr attempting to suppress the full report, but he suppressed the summaries written by Mueller's team specifically for public release. There's absolutely no reason to force Congress to jump through hoops to get access to either the summaries or the report, especially members with high enough security clearances.
happy jack
Posts : 6988
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/5/2019, 1:55 am
Scorpion wrote:
But you're right... and it does appear that the "memo is inaccurately portraying the actual report."
Of course it's being inaccurately portrayed. And do you know how I know that? Because someone heard it from someone, who heard it from someone else, so it's gotta be true.
As Washington eagerly awaits the release of special counsel Robert Mueller’s report, President Trump’s team of lawyers is working feverishly to complete a counter-report to what Mueller’s redacted report might contain.
Trump’s team has been working on the counter-report for months, with news coming out last August that it would focus on whether the initiation of Mueller’s 22-month investigation was legitimate.
The counter report is now reportedly 140 pages long, but Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani said he hopes to shave it down to 50 pages by the time the Mueller report is released, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Obviously they need a counter report to the report that completely exonerates him. That's what innocent people do.
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 10:57 am
President Trump, on hearing of Mueller's appointment wrote:
Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my presidency. I’m fucked.
Also things innocent people say.
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 11:15 am
Quote :
Our investigation found multiple acts by the President that were capable of exetting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian-interference and obstruction investigations. The incidents were often carried out through one-on-one meetings in which the President sought to use his official power outside of usual channels. These actions ranged from efforts to remove the Special Counsel and to reverse the effect of the Attorney General 's recusal; to the attempted use of official power to limit the scope of the investigation; to direct and indirect contacts with witnesses with the potential to influence their testimony. Viewing the acts collectively can help to illuminate their significance. For example , the President's direction to McGahn to have the Special Counsel removed was followed almost immediately by his direction to Lewandowski to tell the Attorney General to limit the scope of the Russia investigation to prospective election-interference only-a temporal connection that suggests that both acts were taken with a related purpose with respect to the investigation.
. . .
Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President 's conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time , if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
This is not the exoneration you were hoping for.
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 1:05 pm
Barr's defense in a nutshell:
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 1:12 pm
Quote :
In the afternoon of May 10, 2017, deputy press secretary Sarah Sanders spoke to the President about his decision to fire Corney and then spoke to reporters in a televised press conference. 478 Sanders told reporters that the President , the Department of Justice , and bipartisan members of Congress had lost confidence in Corney, " [a]nd most importantly, the rank and file of the FBI had lost confidence in their director. Accordingly, the President accepted the recommendation of his Deputy Attorney General to remove James Corney from his position." 479 In response to questions from reporters , Sanders said that Rosenstein decided "on his own" to review Corney's performance and that Rosenstein decided "on his own" to come to the President on Monday, May 8 to express his concerns about Corney. When a reporter indicated that the "vast majority" of FBI agents supported Corney, Sanders said , "Look, we've heard from countless members of the FBI that say very different things. " 48° Following the press conference, Sanders spoke to the President, who told her she did a good job and did not point out any inaccuracies in her comments. 481 Sanders told this Offic e that her reference to hearing from "co untless members of the FBI" was a "slip of the tongue ."482 She also recalled that her statement in a separate press interview that rank-and-file FBI agents had lost confidence in Corney was a comment she made "in the heat of the moment" that was not founded on anything. 483
It's going to be so entertaining watching Republicans defend this report. Not even Sanders could. And it'll be really interesting to see what "legal experts" they cite while doing so since it will clearly be individuals that no longer care about their professional careers. That will vastly limit their pool of available pundits.
Last edited by Heretic on 4/18/2019, 1:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 1:52 pm
Quote :
Second, Manafort briefed Kilimnik on the state of the Trump Campaign and Manafort's plan to win the election. 930 That briefing encompassed the Campaign's messaging and its internal polling data . According to Gates, it also included discussion of "battleground" states, which Manafort identified as Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Minnesota. 931 Manafort did not refer ex licit! to "battle round " states in his tellin of the August 2 discussion, [redacted].
.
The typos are because the DOJ deliberately failed to make their PDF searchable when they compiled it and I'm too lazy to fix 'em. They did so for purely innocuous reasons, of course. The OCR provided elsewhere isn't completely accurate.
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 2:06 pm
Quote :
Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 2:24 pm
Quote :
In January 2018, Manafort told Gates that he had talked to the President's personal counsel and they were "going to take care of us." 848 Mana fort told Gates it was stupid to plead, saying that he had been in touch with the President's personal counsel and repeating that they should " sit tight " and "we'll be taken care of." 849 Gates asked Manafort outright if anyone mentioned pardons and Manafort said no one used that word. 850
Barr explicitly said several times in his testimony to Congress that dangled pardons such as this constitute obstruction of justice.
Out of the 14 cases that were referred to "other components of the Department of Justice and the FBI," 12 are redacted. The 2 that aren't redacted relate to Michael Cohen's conviction for wire fraud and campaign finance violations, and former Obama White House counsel Gregory Craig's indictment for making false statements during a Foreign Agents Registration Act investigation.
Also what happens when you're completely exonerated.
Scorpion
Posts : 2141
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/18/2019, 8:26 pm
Heretic wrote:
Quote :
Second, Manafort briefed Kilimnik on the state of the Trump Campaign and Manafort's plan to win the election. 930 That briefing encompassed the Campaign's messaging and its internal polling data . According to Gates, it also included discussion of "battleground" states, which Manafort identified as Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Minnesota. 931 Manafort did not refer ex licit! to "battle round " states in his tellin of the August 2 discussion, [redacted].
.
The typos are because the DOJ deliberately failed to make their PDF searchable when they compiled it and I'm too lazy to fix 'em. They did so for purely innocuous reasons, of course. The OCR provided elsewhere isn't completely accurate.
You've done quite well without it, but I just found a searchable version on CNN that seems to work...
……… The first volume of the two-part, 448-page report details how Trump and his allies solicited, encouraged, accepted and benefited from the assistance provided by America's most storied foreign adversary as part of a multi-front assault on American democracy. ……... Taken in sum, Mueller's findings reveal three years of actions by Trump and his subordinates that critics say rattle the very foundations of the American system of governance, from the sacrosanct nature of democratic elections to the idea that no man, not even the president, is above the law. The story, in even its most sympathetic telling, is one of a president who used nearly every power vested in his office and his persona — including hiring and firing, the bully pulpit, party loyalty, private intimidation, and disinformation — to cover up ties between his campaign and Russia so that he could spare himself the public humiliation of having won an election that wasn't entirely on the level. ……... Kim Wehle, a law professor at the University of Baltimore who investigated Clinton as part of Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's team, said beyond that the Trump case is "infinitely more serious" than the one she worked on. "Here we've got a hostile foreign power and the evidence is overwhelming that their objective was to attack our free and fair process," she said. ……...
FLASHBACK, October 18, 2016 | Obama to Trump: "Stop Whining," "No Serious Person" Believes U.S. Elections Can Be Rigged Or Stolen
……… In a press conference a few weeks before the 2016 election, President Barack Obama told Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump to "stop whining" about the possiblity that the election could be "rigged," saying that there is no evidence that election rigging has ever happened or could ever happen.
"There is no serious person out there who would suggest that you could even rig America's elections, in part because they are so decentralized. There is no evidence that that has happened in the past, or that there are instances that that could happen this time," the president said to the future president in October 2016. ……… Every expert regardless of political party... who has ever examined these issues in a serious way will tell you that instances of significant voter fraud are not to be found. Keep in mind elections are run by state and local officials." ……... "And if he gets the most votes, it would be my expectation of Hillary Clinton to offer a gracious concession speech and pledge to work with him in order to ensure that the American people benefit from an effective government. ……... "So I'd advise the Democrats and the media Mr. Trump to stop whining, and go make his case to get votes," the president said strongly.
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/19/2019, 10:33 am
Complete exoneration!!! Total lies!!!
It's also been three hours and he hasn't completed... whatever that was. He must be in time out. It certainly couldn't mean "one of the greatest memories of all time" failed him.
Scorpion
Posts : 2141
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/19/2019, 12:21 pm
Heretic wrote:
Complete exoneration!!! Total lies!!!
It's also been three hours and he hasn't completed... whatever that was. He must be in time out. It certainly couldn't mean "one of the greatest memories of all time" failed him.
Maybe Donnie is napping... After all, Mueller was very mean to him, and it made Donnie very frustrated and angry... Donnie is very emotional, you know...
Heretic
Posts : 3520
Subject: Re: The TIC 4/19/2019, 8:00 pm
He finished it. In pure fascist form, he's promising retribution for any that dared oversight.
Fox News senior judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano suggested on Friday there may be enough evidence in the Mueller report to “prosecute” President Donald Trump.
“Depending on how you look at them, there might be enough to prosecute, but the attorney general has decided it’s not enough to prosecute,” Napolitano on his show Judge Napolitano’s Chambers, which airs digitally on Fox Nation. “But it did show a venal, amoral, deceptive Donald Trump, instructing his aides to lie and willing to help them do so. That’s not good in the president of the United States.”
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