Abortion

happy jack wrote:

A miscarriage due to “causation from the mother” is called an abortion.

No, miscarriages are abortions, only spontaneous.  They have many causes and risk is greatly affected by lifestyle choices.  

My sister's first pregnancy was high risk, and the doctor ordered her on bed rest.  Thankfully, she doesn't work because her husband makes enough, so doing so wasn't a problem.  But would she be a murderer if she didn't listen?  What if she couldn't listen, stuck working a job that payed too little and different offer the time off necessary to care for the pregnancy?  Or is your moral outrage still limited to vacuum hoses?

happy jack wrote:

I don’t know. Perhaps hook them up to the hate crime detector machine, or to Artie’s bona fide transsexual detector machine. Either of those may root out the truth.

Yeah, I mean why bother thinking through the long reaching consequences of imposing a total or partial ban on abortions on the women of this country?  That shit just doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.  

But anyway, here's how this country is already treating 13 year old rape victims (the relevant bit starts at 12:19):



America!  Only the best!

Thanks for dying,Fat Tony! The lack of your influence may already be showing
Supreme Court blocks Louisiana law that would restrict abortion providers

Quote :

The Supreme Court in a victory for abortion-rights advocates on Friday blocked Louisiana from enforcing a law that they said would have left the state with only one doctor licensed to perform the procedure.

The justices, by a 7-1 vote, issued a brief order that restores an earlier judicial ban on enforcing the 2014 law.

The court's order is a good sign for abortion-rights groups in Louisiana and nationwide.

Coming shortly after the justices debated a similar Texas law, the order shows a majority of the high court is unwilling to permit conservative states to enforce stringent regulations.

A federal judge had blocked Louisiana from enforcing a rule that would require doctors performing abortions to have admitting privileges at a nearby hospital. The judge found most hospitals simply refused to consider extending these privileges to a doctor whose practice involved abortion.

Because the medical benefits of the law were "minimal," the judge said enforcement would put an undue burden on women seeking abortion.

But on Feb. 24, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which had earlier upheld the Texas abortion law, lifted the judge's order blocking enforcement of the Louisiana law.

Abortion-rights lawyers filed an emergency appeal with the Supreme Court via Justice Clarence Thomas. Since the death of Justice Antonin Scalia, Thomas agreed to handle such appeals arising from the 5th Circuit.

Abortion-rights groups said that if the admitting privilege rule were enforced, "the state of Louisiana will be left with a single abortion provider. That lone doctor, working in one clinic, cannot meet the need for approximately 10,000 abortions in Louisiana, a need that was previously met by six physicians in five clinics across the state."

The order will keep the law on hold until the Supreme Court rules on the Texas case.

Indiana just banned abortion if the fetus has Down syndrome

Quote :

Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) signed a controversial abortion bill Thursday that, among other things, would ban the procedure if it is sought because the fetus was diagnosed with a disability or defect such as Down syndrome.
Shortly before his deadline to act on the sweeping measure, Pence called the law “a comprehensive pro-life measure that affirms the value of all human life,” according to the Associated Press.
The law, which was passed by the legislature earlier this month, would make Indiana the second state in the nation, after North Dakota, to ban abortion in cases where a fetal anomaly is detected. It also would bar the procedure in instances where the decision is based on the sex or race of the fetus. And it could make Indiana the first state in the country to require that fetal remains be buried or cremated, rather than treated like medical waste.
Among the critics of the measure were several Republican women in the state House, who said they considered themselves “pro-life” but thought this bill went too far. Still, the signing of the law by Pence — a staunch opponent of abortion who is in a tight race for reelection — was fully expected.
Pence’s Democratic opponent in the gubernatorial race, John Gregg, quickly reacted to the signing. “While I am personally pro-life, this legislation was not well thought out or properly vetted,” he said in a statement. “If I was in the legislature I would have voted against it, and if I were governor today, I would have vetoed it.”

Awesome! Not only does a woman lose her right to choose but she'll get to live with a life long super financial burden.

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Awesome! Not only does a woman lose her right to choose but she'll get to live with a life long super financial burden.

.... says the board eu(nuch)genecist.

On the bright side those victims of Pence can hop right over here to Illinois and get them vacuumed right out.

Indiana's Anti-Abortion Bill: A Blueprint for Attacks on Rights Nationwide

Quote :

The new provisions include unnecessary admitting privileges requirements for doctors (often impossible to obtain due to the ideology of hospital boards and/or doctors having to travel from out of state), stipulations that force patients to view ultrasounds and listen to the heartbeat of a fetus at least 18 hours before an abortion, as well as reporting requirements for minors that violate confidentiality by informing parents about minors' medical decisions. Also included are new, state-mandated "informed consent" provisions that are regularly used to deliver inaccurate medical information, similar to the well-known 2015 Arizona law requiring physicians to say that a non-surgical abortion can be reversed, even if it is already underway. HEA 1337 also implements a complete ban on fetal tissue research and requires that parents whose fetus is diagnosed with a "lethal fetal anomaly" receive information about perinatal hospice.

Glad this wasn't law when my mother was a child. But hey, fuck those 13 yr old rape victims. They shouldn't have dressed all sexy-like.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-abortion-law_us_56fa3b5de4b014d3fe240b0b

Utah Governor Signs Anesthesia Requirement For Some Abortions

Previous state law gave women the choice whether or not to opt for anesthesia.

03/29/2016 04:31 am ET

………

Reuters) - Utah’s governor on Monday signed a bill requiring doctors to administer anesthesia to women receiving an abortion at the 20th week of gestation, his office said.
The bill, the first of its kind in the nation according to the Salt Lake Tribune, states that an anesthetic or analgesic will “eliminate or alleviate organic pain to the unborn child.”
“The governor is adamantly pro-life. He believes in not only erring on the side of life, but also minimizing any pain that may be caused to an unborn child,” a spokesman for Republican Governor Gary Herbert said in a statement.
………

Reproductive health advocates, including Planned Parenthood of Utah, told the Tribune the position is scientifically unproven and lawmakers have inserted politics into a private medical matter.

………

You’ve already got your right to kill the baby.
And you’ve already got your right to kill the baby after 20 weeks (5 months) gestation.
But when someone suggests alleviating the baby’s pain as you kill it, you have a problem with that.
Fuck you, you fucking monsters.

Because to hell with biology and science!  This makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you think about it, and that's the only thing that matters.

Just pretend they're killed by a drunken hillbilly with a rifle.  Or the prayers of parents in lieu of treatment. You never lose any sleep over those.

happy jack wrote:

...in a most painful manner.

There is no such thing as fetal pain.  The human brain simply isn't developed enough.  No amount of your feigned tears for the aborted changes the science.  

happy jack wrote:

All the general public needs to know is that someone is exercising their ‘choice’, that most holy of all of the Holy Sacraments of the Left.

No, they're exercising their bodily autonomy.  It's the legal concept that prevents you from being forced to donate blood or tissue to another person.  You have that "choice", because you're a man.  Women don't apparently.  "Because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside" seems like a profoundly poor reason to rob them of it.

No one is denying it's a grim topic.  It is, which is why I support each and every policy that would actually reduce the number of abortions performed each year, unlike you and the rest of the GOP.

Jack,
Today I saw your front runner Donald Trump step on the rake by saying that a woman should be punished for having an abortion.
Do you agree with Donald?

Heretic wrote:

   There is no such thing as fetal pain.  The human brain simply isn't developed enough.  No amount of your feigned tears for the aborted changes the science.  

Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing.

Nor is the existence of pain disproven. Rather what you have done is, you have claimed to have proven a negative.


Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks.
Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.

“…. suggests ….”?
“…. probably ….”?
“Evidence …. is limited ….”?

Sounds very science-y.


Sensory receptors and spinal cord synapses required for nociception develop earlier than the thalamocortical pathways required for conscious perception of pain. No human studies have directly examined the development of thalamocortical circuits associated with pain perception. The developmental age at which thalamic pain fibers reach the cortex has been inferred from studies of other thalamocortical circuits, which may or may not develop at the same time as thalamic fibers mediating cortical perception of pain.

“No human studies ….”?
“….has been inferred ….?
“…. may or may not ….?

My, how much more definitive can we get than an inference based upon no human studies in which something may or may not have occurred? (And that's from only the first few pages of your article.}

Heretic wrote:

   
….  which is why I support each and every policy that would actually reduce the number of abortions performed each year, unlike you and the rest of the GOP.

I support contraception, adoption, and education in avoiding unwanted pregnancy.
What other policies do you suggest I should support?

happy jack wrote:

edge540 wrote:

Jack,
Today I saw your front runner Donald Trump step on the rake by saying that a woman should be punished for having an abortion.
Do you agree with Donald?

I'm sorry - whose front runner are you talking about?

Was the question too complicated?

Well that's a shame, obviously the question IS too complicated.

Heretic wrote:

quote="Happy jack"]

Heretic wrote:

Just pretend they're killed by a drunken hillbilly with a rifle.  Or the prayers of parents in lieu of treatment. You never lose any sleep over those.

[b]You know, if only I knew what the hell you were talking about, I might have some sort of response for you.

That would be your carefree attitude on gun control and your callous disregard for tens of thousands of innocent lives lost as result of guns.

edge540 wrote:

happy jack wrote:

edge540 wrote:

Jack,
Today I saw your front runner Donald Trump step on the rake by saying that a woman should be punished for having an abortion.
Do you agree with Donald?

[b]I'm sorry - whose front runner are you talking about?

Was the question too complicated?

Normally I would just chalk it up to his usual kindergarten trolling,but in this case the news just might not have penetrated the ignorant wingnut bubble he lives in and gets his news from.

happy jack wrote:

edge540 wrote:

Well that's a shame, obviously the question IS too complicated.

The question itself is very simple. Where it gets complicated is when you refer to Trump as 'my' front runner.

How about answering the simple question & ignoring the part that's too complicated, eh?

happy jack wrote:

Nor is the existence of pain disproven. Rather what you have done is, you have claimed to have proven a negative.

'Cept that we know there's no conscious cortical processing.  That means, just like plants and Terri Schiavo, little Happy Jr. doesn't feel shit, with or without anesthesia.  

But to hell with biology and science!  This makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you think about it, and that's the only thing that matters.

happy jack wrote:

“…. suggests ….”?
“…. probably ….”?
“Evidence …. is limited ….”?

Sounds very science-y.

It does.  This why I always recommend conservatives actually crack open a science journal every now and again.  Where's your research?  The language should be similar.  Or was your crack assessment based on nothing but fuzzy, feel good nonsense?

happy jack wrote:

I support contraception, adoption, and education in avoiding unwanted pregnancy.
What other policies do you suggest I should support?

Good, that's half of it.  But effective policy requires opposing programs that do not work, i.e. abstinence-only programs, lest they undermine such supported efforts.  Do you?

Plus, we all know you certainly don't really support adoption, otherwise you would have.  Like most conservatives, your care and concern for the unborn doesn't extend past birth.  They're just not worth lifting a finger to save past that point, and definitely if they don't look like you.  It's just way too much of an... inconvenience.  



Texas Forced This Woman to Deliver a Stillborn Baby

Quote :

Daniel and Taylor Mahaffey were 20 weeks pregnant and desperately wanted their child, but when doctors informed them a complication meant the fetus had no chance of survival, they just wanted their baby’s suffering to end. Yet because of their state’s “fetal pain” law, the married Texans say they were forced to endure a stillbirth and wait as their baby slowly died in utero.

. . .

The doctors and nurses at St. David’s Medical Center in Austin cried with them, but said because of Texas law HB2, they could not help speed Taylor’s labor. Technically, the baby was healthy and the mother was healthy, so to induce labor would be an abortion, and to do it at this stage in the pregnancy would be illegal.

The Mahaffeys were sent home to wait for their baby to die or for Taylor’s labor to progress. “We cried ourselves to sleep, waiting for him to come,” Daniel said in an interview with The Daily Beast.

. . .

When Taylor started bleeding, they went back to the hospital, but with Fox’s heart still beating, doctors couldn’t legally interfere.

“Eventually she was just screaming at them to get the child out of her,” Daniel said.

. . .

The Mahaffeys aren’t the only people arguing that bans on later abortions have a cruel real-world impact, come between patients and doctors, and add insult to injury for grieving families.

Last October, a 22-weeks pregnant Ohio woman traveled 300 miles to Chicago to abort a dying fetus when the Planned Parenthood in her home state wouldn’t perform the procedure.

In 2010 in Nebraska, Danielle Deaver came forward to say her state, the first in the nation to enact fetal-pain legislation, barred her doctors from inducing labor at 20 weeks, making her wait 10 days as her uterus slowly crushed her much-wanted baby, who survived only 15 minutes outside the womb.

Yeah.  I'm the monster.  Sure.  Enjoy your new, almost abortion-free America, happy.  And like the 13 yr old rape victim several posts above, and these poor women, may all the women in your life be lucky enough to have the miracle of childbirth forced upon them as well.  Because you care just that much.

And speaking of fetal pain, from that same article:

Quote :

Bradley Price, an OBGYN who practices at St. David’s where Taylor Mahaffey was treated by another doctor, spoke before the committee in July 2013, where he chided the legislature for attempting to practice medicine based on politics instead of sound science.

“This bill is extremely intrusive into the practice of medicine,” Price said, warning it risked Texas women’s health by denying them “the benefits of well-researched safe and proven protocols.”

Speaking on behalf of the Texas District of the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), Price, who delivered three babies before his testimony that day, further explained that most abortions performed after 20 weeks were on women like Taylor Mahaffey, whose fetuses had some condition that was incompatible with life.

“If you’re worried about pain at 20 weeks, what about pain at 40 weeks?” Price asked a representative who kept circling back to the topic of fetal development. “Are we going to ask babies to go through the birth canal still? Is vaginal delivery out of the question? If you take it to an illogical conclusion, that’s where you go.”