INDOT recommends Cline Avenue bridge be permanently closed

Quote :

The elevated portion of Cline Avenue -- which has been closed since November -- will remain closed ... permanently.

Indiana Department of Transportation Commissioner Michael Reed made the annoucement in a news release Monday, hours after INDOT Chief of Staff Bob Zier confirmed that the span wouldn't be repaired.

"Everyone at INDOT understands the impact of this decision on residents, commuters and tourists," Reed said in the news release. "However, the structural integrity of the bridge is in such a diminished state that any combination of repair or re-construction required to meet minimum safety requirements would cost in the tens of millions of dollars and offer a lifespan that would be a fraction of that justified by the investment."

Local officials, including the Lakeshore Chamber of Commerce, were briefed on the matter this morning.

http://nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/article_ce4be47a-f3e4-11de-8028-001cc4c002e0.html

You know...I read that today, a few minutes ago. Unbelievable. Does Mitch realize the impact on the casinos, the diminishing of money coffers that flow so freely downstate?

Does anyone care in North Lake County that someday this could happen, and instead of socking away the money...for emergencies, they spent the money from the boats, and it makes me wonder if they downstate, upstate, inbetween, realize the impact this has on major day to day operations of people getting to work, people traveling along and stopping at what's left to offer: the casinos.

If anything, I think it should be a lesson to north Lake County, not to take things for granted.

I admit I don't know the politics behind this; i.e., who really is responsible for this devastation. I am aware there are many roadways and bridges crumbling in Indiana...including the one on Hohman that BWG had brought to our attention.

But, what are they thinking? This is a major road. This is the bread and butter for people who travel to downtown.

You see, even with all the amenities they placed - (not blaming any particular mayor or politician, past or present), what good is Lost Marsh Golf Course? What good are the casinos now? What money can you now bank on because of no access?

I have many friends that catered to Indiana boats using Cline Avenue, that now retreat to Horseshoe only. All from Illinois. Say goodye to the Majestic I and II; say goodye to Resorts. You have to go through a mouse-maze to get to Resorts and many will not drive through Gary's maze to patronize those guys.

What in the hell is happening with the state of Indiana and the USA? It just keeps going down and down.

I saw on the news we sent billions to other countries.

AGAIN. It's getting worse and worse when we can't fix our own country.

Hey, Admin: I tried fixing this thread. Eliminate it, or fix it for me. Everytime I go to fix something, if someone else is here, posting,)it's impossible to fix your post. If it shows up (I tried eliminating the obvious, but can't get the cursor to do what I want...so either fix it, or throw it out...I don't care, one less post on her lies doesn't mean there won't be more!

UrRight wrote:

You know...I read that today, a few minutes ago. Unbelievable. Does Mitch realize the impact on the casinos, the diminishing of money coffers that flow so freely downstate?

Does anyone care in North Lake County that someday this could happen, and instead of socking away the money...for emergencies, they spent the money from the boats, and it makes me wonder if they downstate, upstate, inbetween, realize the impact this has on major day to day operations of people getting to work, people traveling along and stopping at what's left to offer: the casinos.

If anything, I think it should be a lesson to north Lake County, not to take things for granted.

I admit I don't know the politics behind this; i.e., who really is responsible for this devastation. I am aware there are many roadways and bridges crumbling in Indiana...including the one on Hohman that BWG had brought to our attention.

But, what are they thinking? This is a major road. This is the bread and butter for people who travel to downtown.

I'd be looking at the maintenance and upkeep records first. It's hard to believe that this just happened out of the blue. There had to be warning signs about corrosion,etc.

I'm wondering why Lake County can't sue INDOT for inferior work. Or is that a dumb question?

I read this a.m., in one of the papers they are contemplating a lower type road or bridge. Or main thoroughfare, but that's years off.

Whomever designed and designated the quality of materials used, clearly was in default. Obviously, wasn't qualified in engineering. Why doesn't the attorney general look back in the '80s when it first collapsed and send experts out to see if that was a clue, right there? Find out the backgrounds of those workers, to see if they were even qualified.

Isn't there some legal recourse to this, so the taxpayers aren't stuck with the bill, since this bridge clearly was not designed right.
On another note, someone on the other board suggested they rebuild it without union workers for a cheaper price. That's probably what caused it to collapse and then deteriorate years later. They probably sub-contracted it to friends and relatives under the guise of being union laborers. You see, when the union builds it, it's done right.
Probably some political hack who called himself an engineer for IDOT was in charge and his cronies built and designed it. They should have hired illegals, I bet they would have done it better than the hacks in IDOT. Looks like no one went to college while designing that bridge.
Someone who was in charge of designing and planning should be investigated...and held accountable. It looks like we live in the third world when they just leave something like that hanging, not fixing it up or replacing it. This state sucks when it comes to keeping up with the 21st century.

The response from IDOT is something like:
Well, if the bridge connecting IL to St. Louis collapses, we'll just tear it down and ferry boat the cars over and through the ARCH.

UrRight wrote:

I'm wondering why Lake County can't sue INDOT for inferior work. Or is that a dumb question?

. . .

Whomever designed and designated the quality of materials used, clearly was in default. Obviously, wasn't qualified in engineering.

I don't think it's a dumb question at all. I've only recently started reading up on the topic, but it certainly sounds like it.

I found this from a local blogger:

Quote :

So I got a LETTER (not an e-mail, a LETTER, on paper) from a retired engineer who knows what's what on Cline Avenue:

Quote :

Dear Buzzcut,

Thanks for writing the Times about the Cline Ave. Extension.

Based on my 15 years with the New York Central Chief Engineers Office in Chicago, and with my own firm on Phumb, Tuckett and Associates, where, among other things, I served as Bridge Engineer for a dozen small railroads and inspected some 2000 bridges, I wrote the Post-Tribune and complained about the engineer who designed post-tensioned concrete girder.

They failed to realize that the voids around the steel cables needed to be sealed to keep moisture out. This led to extensive corrosion, which was bad design.

This analysis also says it was never designed right in the first place. If that's the case, someone should be held responsible, right?

YES!!!! So what do we do, and how do taxpayers handle this? Someone was notified, did squat and wouldn't surprise me one bit if political patronage was behind this. Who do you notify.

It sounds too darn fishy to ignore. This calls for a federal investigation. It's real proof behind our suspicions that public safety wasn't a question...it was, "Who made off?"

Who got awarded the contracts, and from what city/town/county/country?

Were those people qualified? Who were they? Never heard of such stupidness in my life when the gov says this or that without ordering a probe.

So, Lois Lane knew exactly what was wrong, just assuming. Apologize, Artie!

What are they gonna do about the Hohman Avenue bridge that expands over railroad tracks by Strack Van'tils in north Hammond? Lois pointed that out, last year.

Wait for it to collapse and hear "we're gonna take it down; drive over the railroad tracks".

Another Indiana structure that now qualifies for a segment on Life After People

Sorry,I couldn't resist.

What does that mean?

He's referring to a depressing TV program.

Well, both papers (PT and NWT) reports the casinos are loosing money like crazy in E.C. and Gary. From what I read, it'll be 2 years before they start whatever they decide to do...i.e., lower the bridge, make less lanes, etc.

Actually, if they don't take care of this issue immediately, and fast, you're gonna see those gravy boats disappear.

Too bad the political hacks thought that gravy train was never gonna have a whistle stop. Gotta laugh...they think money used to fall from trees, then boats, now this.

Oh wait, they did a wonderful job of stopping people from smoking in bars, so that is another source of revenue they can't count on. Nevermind the pollution in E.C., that causes far more deaths with its pollution.

They have to act like they're "doing something" although a bridge is impeding their reliable source of extra reveue. Nut cases need to retire, let the youngsters take over. 5th Graders.

I owe you an apology after reading this topic, Artie. It was Sparkless that didn't answer Lois back ontheotherboard.com, when she suggested what could have occurred that led t the deterioration of the Cline Ave. bridge.

So sorry. Just forgot at the time it was Sparks, not you.

UrRight wrote:

Well, both papers (PT and NWT) reports the casinos are loosing money like crazy in E.C. and Gary. From what I read, it'll be 2 years before they start whatever they decide to do...i.e., lower the bridge, make less lanes, etc.

Actually, if they don't take care of this issue immediately, and fast, you're gonna see those gravy boats disappear.

Don't hold your breath. Mitch Daniels response last week was nothing more than kicking the can down the road. Even if they do agree to rebuild it,it's going to be at least 2+ yrs before it could get done.

Yes, I read that. I have to wonder how they think ahead...he is not going to be gov. He socked away the tollway, where it costs the truckers $32.00 one way, but refuses to release the tollway money for any "rainy day". A rainy day is in our terms, casinos sinking in the harbors.

I can't imagine anyone from IL trying to navigate their way to Resorts or Majestic I and II, without Cline Ave. They won't risk their lives.

They moved away from having to navigate through gang-infested neighborhoods. Hell, I wouldn't know how to get to those boats without Cline Avenue. I fear getting shot on my way. Can you imagine people from IL that don't know any other way but a rat maze to get to through those crime-infested neighborhoods, no directions, going past steel mills to enjoy a night out gambling? Not the rich from Chicago...no way!

Those boats will be GONE if the state takes two years to figure out what an expert can in one week and start the process the next week, not 2 years later. That's why you're called "HOOSIER". You're too stupid to fix an emergency...but those boats sure did help out when YOU needed their money. IDIOT politicians.


Here's the reality that's great news! The welfare recipients funnel back the money that live near those boats. Not enough do it to substain it...but, at least the state gets back the free money. Meanwhile, here is some advice to you politicians:

Pretend those boats don't exist, and adjust your budgets/lifestyles, accordingly Never put all your eggs in one basket. Too late, but, heck, worth noting.

The gravy train is almost gone. If it takes 2 years... you politcians are stupid as stupid does. In the short span the whole big one and half-mile it takes you two years to figure out, the boats will be out of business. Then you can just count on those 200 extra guys the steel mills are hiring to replace thousands of Hoosiers out of jobs, because the revenue you expect from those 200 extra jobs trolling tons of steel will put out 90 percent of he Hoosiers working at casinos. May as well say goodbye to Indiana... this state is worse than IL. Except it's "Dumb and Dumber".

You can lease a tollway out, Mitch, but you can sit on your duff and say there's a silve lining in the very clouds that funnel money to Indianapolis? T

That's why I don't trust you, them, or anyone in gov't You're just a bunch of idiots taking up space. Worried about the chair you sit in...you all make me want to puke, every freaking politician. You're out for yourselves.

There will be a time where you will want to increase the income tax. Except..by that time, everyone will not have an income for you to tax.....workforce will find out welfare pays off. You politicians screwed yourselves.

Artie60438 wrote:

UrRight wrote:

Well, both papers (PT and NWT) reports the casinos are loosing money like crazy in E.C. and Gary. From what I read, it'll be 2 years before they start whatever they decide to do...i.e., lower the bridge, make less lanes, etc.

Actually, if they don't take care of this issue immediately, and fast, you're gonna see those gravy boats disappear.

Don't hold your breath. Mitch Daniels response last week was nothing more than kicking the can down the road. Even if they do agree to rebuild it,it's going to be at least 2+ yrs before it could get done.

As you sit in those traffic jams or when other infrastructure crumbles as a result of heavy trucks diverting,remember to Thank Republican Mitch Daniels,future Presidential candidate

State: Cline Avenue bridge won't be rebuilt

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HAMMOND | The condemned span of the Cline Avenue bridge will not be rebuilt, Indiana Department of Transportation officials said Thursday afternoon during a news conference at the Calumet Conference Center.

Instead, state officials said the plan would demolish an elevated span -- between Michigan Avenue and Calumet Avenue -- which was permanently closed to vehicles on Dec. 28. A combination of Dickey Road, Riley Road and Michigan Avenue would be used to route traffic across the Indiana Harbor and Ship Canal and back to Cline Avenue.

---------------------------
Remember this when Mitch brags about his surplus when he runs for POTUS. It's fairly easy to have one when you sell off a major asset like the Toll road and then sit on the money without replacing badly needed infrastructure.

Are you guys logging onto a topic and suddenly find the remaining comments missing. Without the usual "Post or Reply" underneath and missing posters' messages lately? I encounter this problem a lot. I am trying to read about the Cline ave. Bridge, and Heretic's message is left...and not finishd.

I keep re-logging on, and this has been happening a lot lately..you don't get to read the last few respnses.

Is it me, or what? Anyone else out there finding the same problems? You don't get to read the entire topic's responses or comments...they are cut off. This has been happening for quite a while. Guess I have to shut down and start over to connect.

No problems here.

Shut down, re-booted. Saw the rest of the comments. I guarantee you if they don't rebuild Cline Ave., the Resorts and Majestic I and II will leave. They can't operate on no clients.

The Horseshoe is the most successful, where Chicoans play. Easy access. No one is going to navigate through Gary or E.C. especially with those "appealing" rusted, now out of date steel mills.

I can predict they will leave = Majestic I and II AND Resorts, They can't survive without a 2 minute ride vs a 20 minute ride through gang[infeste neighborhoods and disgusting looking roted, rusted steel mills.

And when it actually affects Mitch and downstaters, they can blame themselves for no extra revenue.

Actually, I believe Mitch wants a legacy...that he never spent a dime from leasing out the tollway but he leaves out the part where that tollway is now under-utilized, not being kept up, and our infrastracture is the shame of the country.

The road to "nowhere" is now. The road to "money circumvented to INDIANAPOLIS" will be no longer. He doesn't give a ratz ass...but I'll tell you one thing...he's probably a millionaire politicians who doesn't give a crap about anything except his "persona". The legacy. What legacy? The roads are not plowed by the Tollway, and just look at the record of accidents on the Borham. They really have no idea how to siphon commuters well ahead of where they are working.

I almost got creamed again yesterday, left lane only for cars on my way to Bass Lake. One truck was behind me tailgaiting me at more than the allowed speed limit while another semi was right next to me...both blowing horns, me...watching out for construction workers and merging lanes. The truck behind me wanted me to go seventy miles an hour so he coult get behind the other semi, out of the left land where NO semis were allowed. I just gushed...thanked God, I was still alive.

I can't believe they have no undercover cops by Riley Street, or wherever it is, to sit along the lanes and pull these tailgaters away. I'm a car. They are two semi-trailers honking at me for obeying the law. One was prohibited to be in my lane, the other semi was honking to go faster through the construction area...to allow the a-hole trucker behind me to get in the proper lane.

But besides all this, what worries me...is that through all this construction, in IL at least you get a fair warning...and it's put up miles before you know where you are to merge. Indiana - you are at your own risk with semi's dominating the highways with total disregard for highway workers or people who try to follow the law...they are like maniacs out there.

If they don't rebuid Cline...Lake County should tell Indps. to go to "hell". No money in means no money out.


They are so stupid and backwards in Indiana...the politicians. Here's goo news: almost a half million people filed for unemployment insurance. The foreclosure rate has increased.

Enjoy your "no free MONEY from taxes or boats". Of course - what do you care? You're leaving office and collecting a nice pension. That's ok, but for future politicians...you might have to work to pay for your own pensions. America is out of money.

Stick your gas prices up ur azzes. People got smart, stayed home, didn't bother traveling...the list goes on. No revenue for you crooked politicos. There's a line drawn by taxpayers. You drew it first, we can't step over it to fund your crooked careers.

Are you guys smarter than a fifthgrader? Maybe we should be voting for fifth graders. They showed some really smart people how dumb they are.

An interesting perspective regarding the Cline Ave Bridge was found on the "Opinion" page in the Post-Tribune. Your opinion, pls.

http://www.post-trib.com/news/opinion/2165718,edit-cline0417.article

State, local needs met by Cline Avenue plan
Comments


April 18, 2010

It's hard to find one word to describe the Indiana Department of Transportation's plan to replace the Cline Avenue extension.

So here are several words: thoughtful, fast, pragmatic, feasible, futuristic and green.

The plan calls for enhancing Dickey and Riley roads, remaking a number of ramps and -- finally -- the demolition of the closed behemoth that is the extension.

INDOT staffers, in four short months, have matched the needs of the region -- traffic flow, jobs, business -- along with state budget constraints.

The key change is there will be no replacement bridge over the Indiana Harbor Canal. The cost and timeline for replacement simply didn't match the needs.

The original Cline extension was built for 100,000 vehicles a day, mostly for shift work and shipments from the region's steel mills. With the decline of jobs and shipping over 30 years, the need for a full-on Cline extension replacement dissipated.

The new plan meets new needs.

It enhances existing roads and adds acres of green space where none now exist.

That's where the words futuristic and green come into play. Plans call for plantings of trees and bushes that help scrub the soil of pollutants and clean the air.

The plan also calls for green shields of plants and flowers to line parts of the enhanced roadways to shield the industrial blight and enhance the scenery.

As it stands, the cost of $75 million plus -- with funds already dedicated -- comes in much lower than the quarter-billion dollars the extension cost nearly 30 years ago.

Community leaders came together in a rare gathering of regional wisdom, and the state answered.

Going back to December, it's hard to imagine all the cohesion and work that has taken place.

But this plan is a reminder that government can work.

I agree that if the majority of the traffic the bridge was built for disappeared, there is not as much need. I'm not familiar with the area - would a bypass around the congestion fit anywhere (maybe with a smaller bridge over the water)?

KarenT wrote:

I agree that if the majority of the traffic the bridge was built for disappeared, there is not as much need. I'm not familiar with the area - would a bypass around the congestion fit anywhere (maybe with a smaller bridge over the water)?

At fiirst I was for rebuilding. After reading further into the issues, I realized you can get to the Gary boat from Cline Avenue North, heading south. The other casino is just a minute away...

So, I agree with the P-T Editorial. The traffic volume, whenever I did use it for the Casinos...or whatever, few cars or trucks were on the road.

So I see no sense in spendng triple the money if they do as the editorial says they will do.

I would like to comment that when I went pass there, using side roads from the Lost Marsh, I was astonished to the exposure of rusted old mills that should be torn down....and I never realized how many chimney stacks billowng out pollution were there.

Which raises the question of why so many people used to know (truckdrivers/wives that worked at the mills) died of lung cancer, or parkinsons' disease while living and working in that area.

I think I mentioned it in a prior post while in high school, friends and I would head for the Riley Ramp to get to the Dunes. I didn't know any better at the time, but you would see tons of dead fish. Looking back, I am surprised we didn't get sick swimming there. But, our goal was "suntans" back then.

No wonder Bette Mitller made the remark she made while appearing at the Horseshow. Too bad it wasn't at the Gary casinos or the Americana, whatever they call it today. Then she'd really would have probably donated the proceeds from her concert.

I am speculating here, but I really believe the pollution is far worse from the E.C. area and I wish someone would do the statistics on how many worked/lived nearby and suffered death through cancer. That research, at this point, is necessary.

On the Mayor's show this AM on WJOB a guy named "Jeff" called in and claimed he was an engineering student working as an inspector on the Cline extension while it was being built in the early 80's. He claims he was pressured by his INDOT superiors to change reports and accept inferior building materials like concrete.
He said some of those superiors worked for the construction contractor in the off season. He said he refused to sign off on phony reports but can't rule out others doing so.

Over at WJOB,they're acting as if this is some sort of smoking gun. If this is true,and presently there is no way to verify it,my question would be....Why did he wait over 25 years to report it?