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 The Dream Shall Never Die

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   2/28/2018, 9:19 am

It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2018/02/27/searing-big-screen-chappaquidick-thriller-mary-jo-kopechne-as-first-metoo-victim-of-kennedy-family-money-power-and-corruption

Searing Big Screen “Chappaquiddick” Thriller: Mary Jo Kopechne as First #MeToo Victim of Kennedy Family Money, Power and Corruption

by Roger Friedman - February 27, 2018 9:45 pm

I think John Curran’s masterful “Chappaquiddick” was shown once in Toronto for a handful of critics and distributors. Byron Allen was very smart to pick it up for his new Entertainment Studios Motion Pictures company–it’s going to be a big hit. What he could never have predicted back in September that by now the movie would have a whole new layer of meaning: Mary Jo Kopechne, left to drown in the waters of Martha’s Vineyard in July 1969, was the first #MeToo victim. Her death, suggested here as caused by the late Senator Edward Kennedy, is the paradigm for everything being discussed today.
Curran has made a couple of movies I really liked– “Tracks” with Mia Wasikowska and Adam Driver, and “We Don’t Live Here Anymore” with Mark Ruffalo and Marisa Tomei. He’s Australian and almost 60, so his sensibility is outsider and his interests would be the Kennedys and how power corrupts. The Australian part is lucky because he’s brought Jason Clarke along as Ted Kennedy, and it’s a powerful performance that should put him on early awards lists. Clarke was born to play Teddy as it turns out.
“Chappaquiddick” refers to a scandal that in hindsight is stunning that it didn’t end Kennedy’s political career– or put him in jail. Let’s say you’re a fan of Kennedy for everything but this episode. Still, on a boozy summer night — the same weekend that Neil Armstrong walked on the moon–a married but philandering Teddy drove his car off the Chappaquiddick bridge with Mary Jo Kopechne (astute performance by Kate Mara, she’s excellent), a young secretary who’d worked for his late brother Bobby, at his side.
Were they screwing, or just driving around, drinking, having a grand time? No one knows. But the car went into the water and turned upside down. Teddy escaped and did not try to save Mary Jo. He return to the party house where he and friends had been whooping it up, found two of his sycophants (Ed Helms and Jim Gaffigan), brought them back to the scene of the accident. By then, Mary Jo had certainly died.

They never reported the accident. Instead, they created massive cover up that presaged Watergate. The car and Mary Jo were discovered the next morning by passersby. Curran peels the cover up like an orange, and it’s beautiful to watch. Clarke portrays Teddy so ambiguously you almost can’t tell if he’s calculating, stupid, just a lost man child. The result is you can’t take your eyes off of him. Teddy’s scenes with his father– Joe Kennedy after a stroke, wheelchair bound, wordless perfection from Bruce Dern–are riveting.
The Kennedys will not be happy. They may try to kill this film. (In 40 years no one has even tried to tell this story accurately.) Allen will have to present quite a PR front and solid distribution. This isn’t a tabloid story. Curran is damn serious.  If Mary Jo as #MeToo victim takes off, the movie will click. This really happened. Ted Kennedy–using his brothers’ assassinations for sympathy–convinced the world that he just didn’t know what happened to this beautiful, smart young woman. “Chappaquiddick” is quite stunning.
Release date is April 6th. More to come, oh yes, when we get closer…
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   2/28/2018, 1:16 pm

Trump Worshiping Tool wrote:
It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.
Or you jerking off in theater with a bunch of other Trump Worshiping wingnuts living in the past.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   2/28/2018, 2:53 pm

Advocate for the Murder of Police Officers 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.
Or you jerking off in theater with a bunch of other Trump Worshiping  wingnuts living in the past.

Rachel, Rachel, Rachel - always with the penis on her mind.
Oy!
(It should be noted that Mary Jo Kopechne lives only in the past. Just sayin'.)
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   2/28/2018, 6:22 pm

Trump Worshiping Tool wrote:
Advocate for the Murder of Police Officers 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.
Or you jerking off in theater with a bunch of other Trump Worshiping  wingnuts living in the past.

Rachel, Rachel, Rachel - always with the penis on her mind.
Oy!
(It should be noted that Mary Jo Kopechne lives only in the past. Just sayin'.)
Like I said...49 years ago and your still jerking off about it. Yet a fairly recent event involving the child molester known as Dennis Hastert and your quiet as a church mouse. Sleep
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   2/28/2018, 6:33 pm

Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Advocate for the Murder of Police Officers 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.
Or you jerking off in theater with a bunch of other Trump Worshiping  wingnuts living in the past.

Rachel, Rachel, Rachel - always with the penis on her mind.
Oy!
(It should be noted that Mary Jo Kopechne lives only in the past. Just sayin'.)
Like I said...49 years ago and your still jerking off about it. Yet a fairly recent event involving the child molester known as Dennis Hastert and your quiet as a church mouse. Sleep

When The Dennis Hastert Story is made into a full-length feature film, perhaps I will have some comment on it.
Until then, I will have to be content with a movie about Ted 'Backstroke' Kennedy.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   2/28/2018, 11:13 pm

Trump Worshiper who gives proven child molester a
pass wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Advocate for the Murder of Police Officers 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.
Or you jerking off in theater with a bunch of other Trump Worshiping  wingnuts living in the past.

Rachel, Rachel, Rachel - always with the penis on her mind.
Oy!
(It should be noted that Mary Jo Kopechne lives only in the past. Just sayin'.)
Like I said...49 years ago and your still jerking off about it. Yet a fairly recent event involving the child molester known as Dennis Hastert and your quiet as a church mouse. Sleep
When The Dennis Hastert Story is made into a full-length feature film, perhaps I will have some comment on it.
Typical.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   3/1/2018, 9:55 am

Artchel60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Advocate for the Murder of Police Officers 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
It's tough to predict which will be more interesting - the movie itself, or the liberal/media response to it.
Or you jerking off in theater with a bunch of other Trump Worshiping  wingnuts living in the past.

Rachel, Rachel, Rachel - always with the penis on her mind.
Oy!
(It should be noted that Mary Jo Kopechne lives only in the past. Just sayin'.)
Like I said...49 years ago and your still jerking off about it. Yet a fairly recent event involving the child molester known as Dennis Hastert and your quiet as a church mouse. Sleep
When The Dennis Hastert Story is made into a full-length feature film, perhaps I will have some comment on it.
Typical.

There really is no end to your riotous ripostes, is there?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   3/28/2018, 8:32 pm

http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/27/chappaquiddick-focuses-viewers-young-woman-ted-kennedy-left-die/

In his 1990 GQ profile of Sen. Ted Kennedy, the late Michael Kelly quotes a Boston Herald writer: “It isn’t really considered summer in Cape Cod until the senator drives on the sidewalk for the first time.”

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/4/2018, 2:17 pm

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/chappaquiddick-exposes-ted-kennedy-at-last/

Chappaquiddick Exposes Ted Kennedy at Last

By Kyle Smith

April 4, 2018 11:02 AM

The movie isn’t a hit piece, but the history it tells is infuriating.

.....

Moreover, as directed by John Curran (The Painted Veil), the film is suffused with lament that a man in Kennedy’s position could have been so much more than he was. Yet Ted, the last and least of four brothers, was shoved into a role for which he simply lacked the character. That the other three were dynamic leaders who died violently while he alone lived on to become the Senate’s Jabba the Hutt is perhaps the most dizzying chapter of the century-long Kennedy epic.
Jason Clarke, an Australian, is superb as Ted, who as of July 18, 1969, is mulling a run for president in 1972. To that end, he gives a solemn TV interview and then, when the cameras are off, turns to his family flunkies and insists that they round up the juicy “boiler-room girls” without whom, he says, there can be no Friday-night party at the beach cottage, on the island at the eastern edge of Martha’s Vineyard. Kennedy’s wife, Joan, being pregnant, is home on bed rest. Meanwhile, the space program that John F. Kennedy championed is two days away from culmination in the moon landing. The contrast between one’s brother’s far-reaching vision and his soft-bellied sibling’s grubby venality is so conspicuous that you could castigate the screenwriters for inventing it; except they didn’t.

.....

Instead, he went back to the inn where he was staying and went to sleep. By the time he sauntered into the town hall to tell the police the next morning, nine hours after his drive, they had already discovered the body.
Some speculation is unavoidable in the screenplay, but what is known is damning, indeed infuriating, and seeing these events play out on screen lends them the capacity to shock us all over again. The combination of arrogance, incompetence, and casual corruption on display is straight out of Veep, but this time it happens while the corpse of a 28-year-old woman is being zipped into a body bag.

....

Imagine having sons like Joe Jr., John, and Robert and being left with only this one, the one expelled from Harvard for cheating, the one who was cited for reckless driving while a law student. Ted himself recognizes the futility of trying to match his legendary brothers: After what they did, he asks, what sobriquet does that leave for me? The fat one? The dumb one? An early scene of Kennedy racing his sailboat nails his personality: sloppy, vain, entitled, a man you wouldn’t trust to change your tire.

....

All that Massachusetts voters required was a sincere apology, and he could fake that.

.....
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/4/2018, 4:53 pm

Gullible Wingnut Sucker wrote:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/chappaquiddick-exposes-ted-kennedy-at-last/

Chappaquiddick Exposes Ted Kennedy at Last

By Kyle Smith

April 4, 2018 11:02 AM

The movie isn’t a hit piece, but the history it tells is infuriating.

Quote :
Some speculation is unavoidable in the screenplay,
So in other words it's fictional catnip for wingnut morons.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/4/2018, 6:02 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Gullible Wingnut Sucker wrote:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/chappaquiddick-exposes-ted-kennedy-at-last/

Chappaquiddick Exposes Ted Kennedy at Last

By Kyle Smith

April 4, 2018 11:02 AM

The movie isn’t a hit piece, but the history it tells is infuriating.

Quote :
Some speculation is unavoidable in the screenplay,
So in other words it's fictional catnip for wingnut morons.

Oh, yeah, it's pure fiction.
As a matter of fact, Mary Jo Kopechne is a proud grandmother of seven, having been happily married to her high school sweetheart for over 40 years.
And Ted 'Orca' Kennedy lived out his golden years acting as a sponsor for Alcoholics Anonymous.


Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes sigh
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/7/2018, 4:09 pm

Ouch!
Quote :
Entertainment Studios’ Chappaquiddick is slightly above its $2M-$4M tracking with $5.6M, but that’s not a big enough start for this movie. The distributor shelled out $4M for this movie out of TIFF, plus an estimated $16M P&A commitment.
Laughing
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/8/2018, 8:27 am

Artie60438 wrote:
Ouch!
Quote :
Entertainment Studios’ Chappaquiddick is slightly above its $2M-$4M tracking with $5.6M, but that’s not a big enough start for this movie. The distributor shelled out $4M for this movie out of TIFF, plus an estimated $16M P&A commitment.
Laughing

Regardless of  the amount of money this movie brings in at the box office, Mary Jo Kopechne is still dead, and Ted 'Nemo' Kennedy will always be remembered as the one responsible for her death. And now, a couple of other generations are up to speed on the matter.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/8/2018, 6:23 pm

Trump Worshiping Wingnut wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
Ouch!
Quote :
Entertainment Studios’ Chappaquiddick is slightly above its $2M-$4M tracking with $5.6M, but that’s not a big enough start for this movie. The distributor shelled out $4M for this movie out of TIFF, plus an estimated $16M P&A commitment.
Laughing

Regardless of  the amount of money this movie brings in at the box office, Mary Jo Kopechne is still dead, and Ted 'Nemo' Kennedy will always be remembered as the one responsible for her death.
And 49 years later you're still jerking off over it. Rolling Eyes

Clueless wrote:
And now, a couple of other generations are up to speed on the matter.
More likely Trump worshiping wingnuts like yourself reliving their wet dream on the big screen.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 9:52 am

Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
Ouch!
Quote :
Entertainment Studios’ Chappaquiddick is slightly above its $2M-$4M tracking with $5.6M, but that’s not a big enough start for this movie. The distributor shelled out $4M for this movie out of TIFF, plus an estimated $16M P&A commitment.
Laughing

Regardless of  the amount of money this movie brings in at the box office, Mary Jo Kopechne is still dead, and Ted 'Nemo' Kennedy will always be remembered as the one responsible for her death.
And 49 years later you're still jerking off over it. Rolling Eyes


Is there some sort of statute of limitations on discussing an event in which a bloated drunk from a major political dynasty causes the death of a young woman, runs away, and lies about it?
If so, why?
And why do you insist upon introducing my penis into nearly every exchange we have?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 10:20 am

Obsessive Compulsive Trump Worshiping Wingnut wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
Ouch!
Quote :
Entertainment Studios’ Chappaquiddick is slightly above its $2M-$4M tracking with $5.6M, but that’s not a big enough start for this movie. The distributor shelled out $4M for this movie out of TIFF, plus an estimated $16M P&A commitment.
Laughing

Regardless of  the amount of money this movie brings in at the box office, Mary Jo Kopechne is still dead, and Ted 'Nemo' Kennedy will always be remembered as the one responsible for her death.
And 49 years later you're still jerking off over it. Rolling Eyes


Is there some sort of statute of limitations on discussing an event in which a bloated drunk from a major political dynasty causes the death of a young woman, runs away, and lies about it?
If so, why?
And why do you insist upon introducing my penis into nearly every exchange we have?
Like I said "49 years later you're still jerking off over it. " Sleep
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 1:18 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Obsessive Compulsive Trump Worshiping Wingnut wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
Ouch!
Quote :
Entertainment Studios’ Chappaquiddick is slightly above its $2M-$4M tracking with $5.6M, but that’s not a big enough start for this movie. The distributor shelled out $4M for this movie out of TIFF, plus an estimated $16M P&A commitment.
Laughing

Regardless of  the amount of money this movie brings in at the box office, Mary Jo Kopechne is still dead, and Ted 'Nemo' Kennedy will always be remembered as the one responsible for her death.
And 49 years later you're still jerking off over it. Rolling Eyes


Is there some sort of statute of limitations on discussing an event in which a bloated drunk from a major political dynasty causes the death of a young woman, runs away, and lies about it?
If so, why?
And why do you insist upon introducing my penis into nearly every exchange we have?
Like I said "49 years later you're still jerking off over it. " Sleep



Can you set forth even one single reason why this particular topic should no longer be discussed?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 2:57 pm

‘Chappaquiddick’ Distorts a Tragedy
By Neal Gabler

Mr. Gabler is writing a biography of Edward Kennedy.
April 6, 2018

Quote :
Senator Edward Kennedy, one of the most famous members of America’s most famous family, understood that he belonged as much to popular culture as to political culture. Now, nine years after his death, comes a movie about the event that, almost as much as the circumstances of his birth, established him in the tabloid pantheon: Chappaquiddick.

The film, by the same name, opened Friday and retells the story of an accident in July 1969, on the titular Massachusetts island near Martha’s Vineyard, in which Mr. Kennedy drove off a bridge, killing his passenger, Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker for his late brother Robert. It has been heavily promoted by conservative media outlets, and reviewers across the political spectrum have praised what they deem its damning but factual approach. Damning it is; factual it is not.

Let’s set aside the fact that, despite the film’s advertisements claiming to tell the “untold true story” of a “cover-up,” the story has been told plenty, and no one but the most lunatic conspiracy theorists see this as anything but a tragic accident in which nothing much was covered up. Let’s also put aside the skein of conjecture and outright fabrication that the film unspools — in one scene Joe Kennedy, the family patriarch, murmurs “alibi” to his son, like a Mafia don, when in fact he was so debilitated by a stroke that he could only babble incoherently. Setting all this aside, the movie nevertheless raises a serious issue.

What is the relationship of fact to fiction, of the historical to the histrionic in art and entertainment? Ted Kennedy was a real man living out a real life. His political opponents could and did distort that life for their advantage. But just how many liberties can an artist or entertainer take when he or she deploys a biographical subject?

Many scenes cross from dramatic interpretation to outright character assassination. In this version, the Kennedy character leaves Kopechne to die as she gasps for air, and then, with the aid of his brothers’ old advisers, cooks up a scheme to salvage his presidential ambitions. A more callow, cunning, cowardly and self-interested yet moronic figure you couldn’t find. His first words after the accident are: “I’m not going to be president.”

Obviously, an artist isn’t saddled with the same obligations to fact that a biographer or historian is. We accept artists appropriating lives and altering them. But we also expect an artistically valid justification for bending the truth, and sensationalism isn’t one of them. Biographical novels like “I, Claudius” or “Wolf Hall” put historical figures in the service of larger themes about the human condition. The novelist Joyce Carol Oates attempted to do that with Chappaquiddick in her novel “Black Water,” a roman à clef and a meditation on male power and female vulnerability.

Most artists understand how thin the line between art and gossip can be when one deals with real-life figures in semi-fictional contexts, which is why most artists wait until those figures pass into what seems like “public domain” — ceasing to exist as particularized people we know from the news and assuming larger cultural proportions that turn them into characters we don’t fully know.

Ted Kennedy has not passed into the public domain in this sense, so one tampers with his life at the peril of turning it into tawdry melodrama. This is especially true of the Kennedy family, who remain politically active, and divisive.

Contrary to the film’s implications, Mr. Kennedy immediately and forever after felt deep remorse and responsibility for the accident; it haunted him. By the end of his life, however, the then white-maned senator had managed to transcend celebrity and emotional paralysis and become what he had long aspired to be: an indispensable legislator whose achievements included the 18-year-old vote, the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Children’s Health Insurance Program.

His was a large-life, tragic and multidimensional figure, and it could have made, and perhaps someday will make, for an expansive novel or film about sin and redemption. “Chappaquiddick” is not that movie. Instead of excavating Kennedy for larger artistic aims, it eviscerates him for narrow voyeuristic ones.

But this is about more than Ted Kennedy’s legacy. It is a case study in how society collectively shapes its own history. It is not merely, or even mainly, the realm of historians.

Because historical figures pass out of history and into popular culture, and because that process is accelerating, these figures are increasingly defined by popular culture. Artists and especially entertainers may not feel obligations to their subjects, but they do have responsibilities to us, one of which is honesty.

Fake history is no better than fake news; it’s maybe worse. It is very possible that over time, through the osmosis of social media, the despicable Kennedy of this movie will eradicate the honorable if flawed real one.

At one point in the film, Ted Sorensen, one of John Kennedy’s closest advisers, tells Mr. Kennedy, “History usually has the final word in these things.” It’s meant to be a comforting thought, to say that the truth will come out in the end. Watching “Chappaquiddick,” it’s not clear that’s true.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 3:55 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
‘Chappaquiddick’ Distorts a Tragedy
By Neal Gabler

Mr. Gabler is writing a biography of Edward Kennedy.
April 6, 2018

Quote :
Senator Edward Kennedy, one of the most famous members of America’s most famous family, understood that he belonged as much to popular culture as to political culture. Now, nine years after his death, comes a movie about the event that, almost as much as the circumstances of his birth, established him in the tabloid pantheon: Chappaquiddick.

The film, by the same name, opened Friday and retells the story of an accident in July 1969, on the titular Massachusetts island near Martha’s Vineyard, in which Mr. Kennedy drove off a bridge, killing his passenger, Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker for his late brother Robert. It has been heavily promoted by conservative media outlets, and reviewers across the political spectrum have praised what they deem its damning but factual approach. Damning it is; factual it is not.

Let’s set aside the fact that, despite the film’s advertisements claiming to tell the “untold true story” of a “cover-up,” the story has been told plenty, and no one but the most lunatic conspiracy theorists see this as anything but a tragic accident in which nothing much was covered up. Let’s also put aside the skein of conjecture and outright fabrication that the film unspools — in one scene Joe Kennedy, the family patriarch, murmurs “alibi” to his son, like a Mafia don, when in fact he was so debilitated by a stroke that he could only babble incoherently. Setting all this aside, the movie nevertheless raises a serious issue.

What is the relationship of fact to fiction, of the historical to the histrionic in art and entertainment? Ted Kennedy was a real man living out a real life. His political opponents could and did distort that life for their advantage. But just how many liberties can an artist or entertainer take when he or she deploys a biographical subject?

Many scenes cross from dramatic interpretation to outright character assassination. In this version, the Kennedy character leaves Kopechne to die as she gasps for air, and then, with the aid of his brothers’ old advisers, cooks up a scheme to salvage his presidential ambitions. A more callow, cunning, cowardly and self-interested yet moronic figure you couldn’t find. His first words after the accident are: “I’m not going to be president.”

Obviously, an artist isn’t saddled with the same obligations to fact that a biographer or historian is. We accept artists appropriating lives and altering them. But we also expect an artistically valid justification for bending the truth, and sensationalism isn’t one of them. Biographical novels like “I, Claudius” or “Wolf Hall” put historical figures in the service of larger themes about the human condition. The novelist Joyce Carol Oates attempted to do that with Chappaquiddick in her novel “Black Water,” a roman à clef and a meditation on male power and female vulnerability.

Most artists understand how thin the line between art and gossip can be when one deals with real-life figures in semi-fictional contexts, which is why most artists wait until those figures pass into what seems like “public domain” — ceasing to exist as particularized people we know from the news and assuming larger cultural proportions that turn them into characters we don’t fully know.

Ted Kennedy has not passed into the public domain in this sense, so one tampers with his life at the peril of turning it into tawdry melodrama. This is especially true of the Kennedy family, who remain politically active, and divisive.

Contrary to the film’s implications, Mr. Kennedy immediately and forever after felt deep remorse and responsibility for the accident; it haunted him. By the end of his life, however, the then white-maned senator had managed to transcend celebrity and emotional paralysis and become what he had long aspired to be: an indispensable legislator whose achievements included the 18-year-old vote, the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Children’s Health Insurance Program.

His was a large-life, tragic and multidimensional figure, and it could have made, and perhaps someday will make, for an expansive novel or film about sin and redemption. “Chappaquiddick” is not that movie. Instead of excavating Kennedy for larger artistic aims, it eviscerates him for narrow voyeuristic ones.

But this is about more than Ted Kennedy’s legacy. It is a case study in how society collectively shapes its own history. It is not merely, or even mainly, the realm of historians.

Because historical figures pass out of history and into popular culture, and because that process is accelerating, these figures are increasingly defined by popular culture. Artists and especially entertainers may not feel obligations to their subjects, but they do have responsibilities to us, one of which is honesty.

Fake history is no better than fake news; it’s maybe worse. It is very possible that over time, through the osmosis of social media, the despicable Kennedy of this movie will eradicate the honorable if flawed real one.

At one point in the film, Ted Sorensen, one of John Kennedy’s closest advisers, tells Mr. Kennedy, “History usually has the final word in these things.” It’s meant to be a comforting thought, to say that the truth will come out in the end. Watching “Chappaquiddick,” it’s not clear that’s true.

lol! lol! lol! lol!

And let the whitewashing begin.
Fake history, my ass.
There is absolutely no dispute that Ted 'Aquaman' Kennedy was responsible for the death of Mary Jo Kopechne.
None.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a lying asshole, and anyone who would believe that claim is a delusional asshole.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 4:09 pm

Useful Idiot wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
‘Chappaquiddick’ Distorts a Tragedy
By Neal Gabler

Mr. Gabler is writing a biography of Edward Kennedy.
April 6, 2018

Quote :
Senator Edward Kennedy, one of the most famous members of America’s most famous family, understood that he belonged as much to popular culture as to political culture. Now, nine years after his death, comes a movie about the event that, almost as much as the circumstances of his birth, established him in the tabloid pantheon: Chappaquiddick.

The film, by the same name, opened Friday and retells the story of an accident in July 1969, on the titular Massachusetts island near Martha’s Vineyard, in which Mr. Kennedy drove off a bridge, killing his passenger, Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker for his late brother Robert. It has been heavily promoted by conservative media outlets, and reviewers across the political spectrum have praised what they deem its damning but factual approach. Damning it is; factual it is not.

Let’s set aside the fact that, despite the film’s advertisements claiming to tell the “untold true story” of a “cover-up,” the story has been told plenty, and no one but the most lunatic conspiracy theorists see this as anything but a tragic accident in which nothing much was covered up. Let’s also put aside the skein of conjecture and outright fabrication that the film unspools — in one scene Joe Kennedy, the family patriarch, murmurs “alibi” to his son, like a Mafia don, when in fact he was so debilitated by a stroke that he could only babble incoherently. Setting all this aside, the movie nevertheless raises a serious issue.

What is the relationship of fact to fiction, of the historical to the histrionic in art and entertainment? Ted Kennedy was a real man living out a real life. His political opponents could and did distort that life for their advantage. But just how many liberties can an artist or entertainer take when he or she deploys a biographical subject?

Many scenes cross from dramatic interpretation to outright character assassination. In this version, the Kennedy character leaves Kopechne to die as she gasps for air, and then, with the aid of his brothers’ old advisers, cooks up a scheme to salvage his presidential ambitions. A more callow, cunning, cowardly and self-interested yet moronic figure you couldn’t find. His first words after the accident are: “I’m not going to be president.”

Obviously, an artist isn’t saddled with the same obligations to fact that a biographer or historian is. We accept artists appropriating lives and altering them. But we also expect an artistically valid justification for bending the truth, and sensationalism isn’t one of them. Biographical novels like “I, Claudius” or “Wolf Hall” put historical figures in the service of larger themes about the human condition. The novelist Joyce Carol Oates attempted to do that with Chappaquiddick in her novel “Black Water,” a roman à clef and a meditation on male power and female vulnerability.

Most artists understand how thin the line between art and gossip can be when one deals with real-life figures in semi-fictional contexts, which is why most artists wait until those figures pass into what seems like “public domain” — ceasing to exist as particularized people we know from the news and assuming larger cultural proportions that turn them into characters we don’t fully know.

Ted Kennedy has not passed into the public domain in this sense, so one tampers with his life at the peril of turning it into tawdry melodrama. This is especially true of the Kennedy family, who remain politically active, and divisive.

Contrary to the film’s implications, Mr. Kennedy immediately and forever after felt deep remorse and responsibility for the accident; it haunted him. By the end of his life, however, the then white-maned senator had managed to transcend celebrity and emotional paralysis and become what he had long aspired to be: an indispensable legislator whose achievements included the 18-year-old vote, the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Children’s Health Insurance Program.

His was a large-life, tragic and multidimensional figure, and it could have made, and perhaps someday will make, for an expansive novel or film about sin and redemption. “Chappaquiddick” is not that movie. Instead of excavating Kennedy for larger artistic aims, it eviscerates him for narrow voyeuristic ones.

But this is about more than Ted Kennedy’s legacy. It is a case study in how society collectively shapes its own history. It is not merely, or even mainly, the realm of historians.

Because historical figures pass out of history and into popular culture, and because that process is accelerating, these figures are increasingly defined by popular culture. Artists and especially entertainers may not feel obligations to their subjects, but they do have responsibilities to us, one of which is honesty.

Fake history is no better than fake news; it’s maybe worse. It is very possible that over time, through the osmosis of social media, the despicable Kennedy of this movie will eradicate the honorable if flawed real one.

At one point in the film, Ted Sorensen, one of John Kennedy’s closest advisers, tells Mr. Kennedy, “History usually has the final word in these things.” It’s meant to be a comforting thought, to say that the truth will come out in the end. Watching “Chappaquiddick,” it’s not clear that’s true.

lol! lol! lol! lol!

And let the whitewashing begin.
Fake history, my ass.
There is absolutely no dispute that Ted 'Aquaman' Kennedy was responsible for the death of Mary Jo Kopechne.
None.
Anyone who claims otherwise is a lying asshole, and anyone who would believe that claim is a delusional asshole.
Ted Kennedy accidentally drove his car off a bridge. Tragically his passenger,Mary Jo Kopechne died. He left the scene of the accident and eventually pleaded guilty to that.

You weren't there,I wasn't there,nor were the lunatic fringe like Alex Jones,or whatever right-wing kook of the day that you subscribe to. It was an accident....plain and simple!
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/9/2018, 9:52 pm

Artchel 60438 wrote:
     
Ted Kennedy accidentally drove his car off a bridge. Tragically his passenger,Mary Jo Kopechne died. He left the scene of the accident and eventually pleaded guilty to that.

You weren't there,I wasn't there,nor were the lunatic fringe like Alex Jones,or whatever right-wing kook of the day that you subscribe to. It was an accident....plain and simple!]

Ted Kennedy driving off of the bridge was certainly an accident.
What was not an accident, however, was his leaving the scene of that accident, failing to report it for about 10 hours, and leaving Mary Jo Kopechne to die a very slow, yet very preventable, death.
That was self-serving, cowardly, and reprehensible.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident#Testimony_and_cause_of_death

Testimony and cause of death

Map of Cape Cod with Chappaquiddick
John Farrar was the captain of the Edgartown Fire Rescue unit and the diver who recovered Kopechne's body. He alleged that Kopechne died from suffocation rather than from drowning or from the impact of the overturned vehicle. This hypothesis was based upon the posture in which he found the body and the body's relative position to the area of an ultimate air pocket in the overturned vehicle. Farrar also asserted that Kopechne would have probably survived if a more timely rescue attempt had been conducted.[40][41][42] Farrar located Kopechne's body in the well of the backseat of the overturned submerged car. Rigor mortis was apparent, her hands were clasping the backseat, and her face was turned upward.[43] Farrar testified at the Inquest:

It looked as if she were holding herself up to get a last breath of air. It was a consciously assumed position.... She didn't drown. She died of suffocation in her own air void. It took her at least three or four hours to die. I could have had her out of that car twenty-five minutes after I got the call. But he [Ted Kennedy] didn't call.

— diver John Farrar, Inquest into the Death of Mary Jo Kopechne, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Edgartown District Court. New York: EVR Productions, 1970.
Later at the inquest, Farrar testified that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted that to mean that Kopechne had survived in the air bubble after the crash, and he concluded that

Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car.[19]

Farrar believed that Kopechne "lived for at least two hours down there."[44]

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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/10/2018, 9:30 am

Idiot wrote:
Artie wins another one! wrote:
     
Ted Kennedy accidentally drove his car off a bridge. Tragically his passenger,Mary Jo Kopechne died. He left the scene of the accident and eventually pleaded guilty to that.

You weren't there,I wasn't there,nor were the lunatic fringe like Alex Jones,or whatever right-wing kook of the day that you subscribe to. It was an accident....plain and simple!]

Ted Kennedy driving off of the bridge was certainly an accident.
What was not an accident, however, was his leaving the scene of that accident, failing to report it for about 10 hours, and leaving Mary Jo Kopechne to die a very slow, yet very preventable, death.
That was self-serving, cowardly, and reprehensible.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident#Testimony_and_cause_of_death

Testimony and cause of death

Map of Cape Cod with Chappaquiddick
John Farrar was the captain of the Edgartown Fire Rescue unit and the diver who recovered Kopechne's body. He alleged that Kopechne died from suffocation rather than from drowning or from the impact of the overturned vehicle. This hypothesis was based upon the posture in which he found the body and the body's relative position to the area of an ultimate air pocket in the overturned vehicle. Farrar also asserted that Kopechne would have probably survived if a more timely rescue attempt had been conducted.[40][41][42] Farrar located Kopechne's body in the well of the backseat of the overturned submerged car. Rigor mortis was apparent, her hands were clasping the backseat, and her face was turned upward.[43] Farrar testified at the Inquest:

It looked as if she were holding herself up to get a last breath of air. It was a consciously assumed position.... She didn't drown. She died of suffocation in her own air void. It took her at least three or four hours to die. I could have had her out of that car twenty-five minutes after I got the call. But he [Ted Kennedy] didn't call.

— diver John Farrar, Inquest into the Death of Mary Jo Kopechne, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Edgartown District Court. New York: EVR Productions, 1970.
Later at the inquest, Farrar testified that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted that to mean that Kopechne had survived in the air bubble after the crash, and he concluded that

Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car.[19]

Farrar believed that Kopechne "lived for at least two hours down there."[44]

LMAO! That's your evidence? The testimony of a diver?
From the same Wiki article:
Quote :
The medical examiner, Dr. Donald Mills, was satisfied that the cause of death was accidental drowning. He signed a death certificate to that effect and released Kopechne's body to her family without ordering an autopsy; Forensic pathologist Werner Spitz testified on behalf of Joseph and Gwen Kopechne that the autopsy was unnecessary and the available evidence was sufficient to conclude that Kopechne died from drowning
I'll take the word of medical professionals. You OTOH can continue to wallow in the conspiracy swamps of Planet Wingnuttia. Sleep
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/10/2018, 6:34 pm

Artchel 60438 wrote:
   
I'll take the word of medical professionals. You OTOH can continue to wallow in the conspiracy swamps of Planet Wingnuttia. Sleep

What conspiracy?
Whether the bloated drunk left a woman to die from drowning or from asphyxia is really kind of irrelevant.
The bloated drunk nevertheless left a woman to die without lifting one of his fat sausage-fingers to help her.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/10/2018, 10:04 pm

Trump Worshiping Moron Who Can't Even Remember What He Posts wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
   
I'll take the word of medical professionals. You OTOH can continue to wallow in the conspiracy swamps of Planet Wingnuttia. Sleep

What conspiracy?
Whether the bloated drunk left a woman to die from drowning or from asphyxia is really kind of irrelevant.
Yet you were the one who introduced it Shocked

Trump Worshiping Toady wrote:
The bloated drunk nevertheless left a woman to die without lifting one of his fat sausage-fingers to help her.
Once again you make bullshit claims that you have no chance of proving. Exactly like your hero Trump. Shocked
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Dream Shall Never Die   4/11/2018, 9:12 am

Artchel 60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artchel 60438 wrote:
   
I'll take the word of medical professionals. You OTOH can continue to wallow in the conspiracy swamps of Planet Wingnuttia. Sleep

What conspiracy?
Whether the bloated drunk left a woman to die from drowning or from asphyxia is really kind of irrelevant.
Yet you were the one who introduced it Shocked

happy jack wrote:
The bloated drunk nevertheless left a woman to die without lifting one of his fat sausage-fingers to help her.
Once again you make bullshit claims that you have no chance of proving. Exactly like your hero Trump. Shocked

Just to be clear - you are perfectly fine with the fact that AquaTed left a woman to die due to drowning, but for some reason, had she been abandoned and left to die due to asphyxiation, that would have somehow not been OK with you.
Does that pretty much sum up your thought process (as limited as that process is)?
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