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 Bidder 70 receives 2 years

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sparks



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PostSubject: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/28/2011, 3:43 pm

Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail. Tim Dechristopher single handedly derailed a federal auction of oil leases near national parks.By prosecuting and winning this case, the federal government has elevated him to celebrity status. I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need to battle the fossil fuel industry and the millions they pour into lobbying and propaganda. This is a classic battle of good vs. evil and I think we are going to see a 21 st century version of the epic protests of the 1960's.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/29/2011, 11:07 am

sparks wrote:
Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail. Tim Dechristopher single handedly derailed a federal auction of oil leases near national parks.By prosecuting and winning this case, the federal government has elevated him to celebrity status. I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need to battle the fossil fuel industry and the millions they pour into lobbying and propaganda. This is a classic battle of good vs. evil and I think we are going to see a 21 st century version of the epic protests of the 1960's.
So you believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes?
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/29/2011, 11:15 am

happy jack wrote:
So you believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes?

You wouldn't?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/29/2011, 2:01 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
So you believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes?

You wouldn't?
Does that sense of righteousness extend to pro-lifers standing in front of Planned Parenthood 'clinics' attempting to dissuade women from undergoing abortions?
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/29/2011, 2:05 pm

So you do?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/29/2011, 3:45 pm

Heretic wrote:
So you do?
Yes, I do. I just wanted to see if that works both ways, but apparently no one wants to give an answer.
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sparks



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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/29/2011, 5:43 pm

happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail. Tim DeChristopher single handedly derailed a federal auction of oil leases near national parks.By prosecuting and winning this case, the federal government has elevated him to celebrity status. I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need to battle the fossil fuel industry and the millions they pour into lobbying and propaganda. This is a classic battle of good vs. evil and I think we are going to see a 21 st century version of the epic protests of the 1960's.
So you believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes?
Yes, when the law is unjust, I don't see any other choice. Here is a statement that was issued after Dechristopher's sentencing.
Quote :
Consider this your call to action. Consider this the spark that will ignite this movement. Our hearts are broken today, because we see a charismatic, bright, concerned man who cares for the future of the next generation, be incarcerated in federal prison and treated like a criminal. If there was ever a day, if there was ever a moment in history for us to stand for climate justice, this is that moment. And we will no stop, we will not be intimidated, and we will not be deterred in our plight for climate justice. We demand today and tomorrow a healthy and just world for our children and for our children’s children. And we will not stop until the real criminals–the fossil fuel industry that is raping and pillaging our planet–be held accountable. I ask as a personal favor that we do not let this sacrifice, the sacrifice that Tim DeChristopher’s willing to make, the fact that he has never given up on his convictions, and the fact that he has never backed down–that we do not let that sacrifice go unnoticed, that we do not let that sacrifice go without a response. I ask every one of you, what is your commitment? This is your call to action, because this is our future.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/31/2011, 3:36 pm

sparks wrote:
happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail. Tim DeChristopher single handedly derailed a federal auction of oil leases near national parks.By prosecuting and winning this case, the federal government has elevated him to celebrity status. I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need to battle the fossil fuel industry and the millions they pour into lobbying and propaganda. This is a classic battle of good vs. evil and I think we are going to see a 21 st century version of the epic protests of the 1960's.
So you believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes?
Yes, when the law is unjust, I don't see any other choice. Here is a statement that was issued after Dechristopher's sentencing.
Quote :
Consider this your call to action. Consider this the spark that will ignite this movement. Our hearts are broken today, because we see a charismatic, bright, concerned man who cares for the future of the next generation, be incarcerated in federal prison and treated like a criminal. If there was ever a day, if there was ever a moment in history for us to stand for climate justice, this is that moment. And we will no stop, we will not be intimidated, and we will not be deterred in our plight for climate justice. We demand today and tomorrow a healthy and just world for our children and for our children’s children. And we will not stop until the real criminals–the fossil fuel industry that is raping and pillaging our planet–be held accountable. I ask as a personal favor that we do not let this sacrifice, the sacrifice that Tim DeChristopher’s willing to make, the fact that he has never given up on his convictions, and the fact that he has never backed down–that we do not let that sacrifice go unnoticed, that we do not let that sacrifice go without a response. I ask every one of you, what is your commitment? This is your call to action, because this is our future.


Hero or villain?
Whaddaya think?


sparks wrote:
Since most of our media won't even report on this firebombing of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Texas, I don't see any arrests being made in the future. It's much easier to go after women who have miscarriages. The writer makes a great point when he said unsuccessful attempts of terrorism by Muslims receive far more press coverage than domestic terrorism against clinics like this.
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sparks



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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/31/2011, 4:37 pm

happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
happy jack wrote:

So you believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes?
Yes, when the law is unjust, I don't see any other choice. Here is a statement that was issued after Dechristopher's sentencing.
Quote :
Consider this your call to action. Consider this the spark that will ignite this movement. Our hearts are broken today, because we see a charismatic, bright, concerned man who cares for the future of the next generation, be incarcerated in federal prison and treated like a criminal. If there was ever a day, if there was ever a moment in history for us to stand for climate justice, this is that moment. And we will no stop, we will not be intimidated, and we will not be deterred in our plight for climate justice. We demand today and tomorrow a healthy and just world for our children and for our children’s children. And we will not stop until the real criminals–the fossil fuel industry that is raping and pillaging our planet–be held accountable. I ask as a personal favor that we do not let this sacrifice, the sacrifice that Tim DeChristopher’s willing to make, the fact that he has never given up on his convictions, and the fact that he has never backed down–that we do not let that sacrifice go unnoticed, that we do not let that sacrifice go without a response. I ask every one of you, what is your commitment? This is your call to action, because this is our future.


Hero or villain?
Whaddaya think?


sparks wrote:
Since most of our media won't even report on this firebombing of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Texas, I don't see any arrests being made in the future. It's much easier to go after women who have miscarriages. The writer makes a great point when he said unsuccessful attempts of terrorism by Muslims receive far more press coverage than domestic terrorism against clinics like this.
I think that question would be better addressed in the thread about the arson of the Planned Parenthood clinic.It would really be nice if you would quit trying to derail threads by taking them off-topic
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   7/31/2011, 8:31 pm

happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
So you do?
Yes, I do. I just wanted to see if that works both ways, but apparently no one wants to give an answer.

No, we just thought it was ridiculously obvious. Yes, we all "believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes" so long as their "sense of conscience" agrees with our own which tend to fall along the various political/spiritual lines.

Amazing. How profound. I'll write Reader's Digest.

Now, any comment on the specific instance sparks was referring to? Hero or villian?

What do you think?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 7:06 am

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
So you do?
Yes, I do. I just wanted to see if that works both ways, but apparently no one wants to give an answer.

No, we just thought it was ridiculously obvious. Yes, we all "believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes" so long as their "sense of conscience" agrees with our own which tend to fall along the various political/spiritual lines.

Amazing. How profound. I'll write Reader's Digest.

I was asking if you agree that such people are heroes even if their sense of conscience fails to fall along the lines of your own political/spiritual beliefs. It must have gone over your head.



Heretic wrote:


Now, any comment on the specific instance sparks was referring to? Hero or villian?

What do you think?
Hero or villain?
More like idiot.
It wasn’t even an abortion clinic that he targeted.

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 7:15 am

sparks wrote:
I think that question would be better addressed in the thread about the arson of the Planned Parenthood clinic.It would really be nice if you would quit trying to derail threads by taking them off-topic
I'm not derailing anything. In the very first post on this thread, you broached that very topic:

sparks wrote:

Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail ....
.... I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need ....
.... This is a classic battle of good vs. evil ....
Of course, I understand fully why you refuse to answer. But in the future, it might be best for you to not initiate topics that you are too squeamish to deal with.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 8:37 am

happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
I think that question would be better addressed in the thread about the arson of the Planned Parenthood clinic.It would really be nice if you would quit trying to derail threads by taking them off-topic
I'm not derailing anything.
You're not? Shocked
Quote :
In the very first post on this thread, you broached that very topic:

sparks wrote:

Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail ....
.... I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need ....
.... This is a classic battle of good vs. evil ....
Please point out to us where Planned Parenthood was mentioned. :bball:
Quote :
f course, I understand fully why you refuse to answer. But in the future, it might be best for you to not initiate topics that you are too squeamish to deal with.
Keep trying to hijack and derail threads.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 8:50 am

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
I think that question would be better addressed in the thread about the arson of the Planned Parenthood clinic.It would really be nice if you would quit trying to derail threads by taking them off-topic
I'm not derailing anything.
You're not? Shocked
Quote :
In the very first post on this thread, you broached that very topic:

sparks wrote:

Here is the story of someone who should be hailed as a hero instead of going to jail ....
.... I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need ....
.... This is a classic battle of good vs. evil ....
Please point out to us where Planned Parenthood was mentioned. :bball:
Quote :
f course, I understand fully why you refuse to answer. But in the future, it might be best for you to not initiate topics that you are too squeamish to deal with.
Keep trying to hijack and derail threads.

The topic I was referencing was civil disobedience and the heroism involved. sparks posted the passage below on another thread, and it ties in quite nicely with the topic. I was neither hijacking nor derailing; I was simply trying to get his opinion on civil disobedience in a different context. If you had not seen the post below, then I can understand why you thought I was changing the subject. Now that you have seen his post, I hope that clears things up.

sparks wrote:
Since most of our media won't even report on this firebombing of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Texas, I don't see any arrests being made in the future. It's much easier to go after women who have miscarriages. The writer makes a great point when he said unsuccessful attempts of terrorism by Muslims receive far more press coverage than domestic terrorism against clinics like this.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 8:58 am

happy jack wrote:

[b]The topic I was referencing was civil disobedience and the heroism involved. sparks posted the passage below on another thread, and it ties in quite nicely with the topic. I was neither hijacking nor derailing; I was simply trying to get his opinion on civil disobedience in a different context. If you had not seen the post below, then I can understand why you thought I was changing the subject. Now that you have seen his post, I hope that clears things up.

sparks wrote:
Since most of our media won't even report on this firebombing of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Texas, I don't see any arrests being made in the future. It's much easier to go after women who have miscarriages. The writer makes a great point when he said unsuccessful attempts of terrorism by Muslims receive far more press coverage than domestic terrorism against clinics like this.
That post is from a completely different thread,not this one.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 9:33 am

Artie60438 wrote:

That post is from a completely different thread,not this one.
Uh ......... yeah.
I thought I made that clear.
A normal person would have grasped that intuitively.
The fact that you didn't .... ???? .... well, I'll just let each poster draw his or her own conclusions.

happy jack wrote:



The topic I was referencing was civil disobedience and the heroism involved. sparks posted the passage below on another thread, and it ties in quite nicely with the topic. I was neither hijacking nor derailing; I was simply trying to get his opinion on civil disobedience in a different context. If you had not seen the post below, then I can understand why you thought I was changing the subject. Now that you have seen his post, I hope that clears things up.

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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 10:29 am

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:

That post is from a completely different thread,not this one.
[b]Uh ......... yeah.
I thought I made that clear.
A normal person would have grasped that intuitively.
The fact that you didn't .... ???? .... well, I'll just let each poster draw his or her own conclusions.

Yeah well it's sometimes a little difficult to follow your logic since you're always trying to be too cute by half.

Quote :
[b]The topic I was referencing was civil disobedience and th
e heroism involved. sparks posted the passage below on another thread, and it ties in quite nicely with the topic. I was neither hijacking nor derailing; I was simply trying to get his opinion on civil disobedience in a different context. If you had not seen the post below, then I can understand why you thought I was changing the subject. Now that you have seen his post, I hope that clears things up. [/quote]

It would tie in a lot better in the other thread.
I'm done now Sleep
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 11:59 am

happy jack wrote:
I was asking if you agree that such people are heroes even if their sense of conscience fails to fall along the lines of your own political/spiritual beliefs. It must have gone over your head.

Seriously? I'm fairly certain I answered. Let's check...

I wrote:
Yes, we all "believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes" so long as their "sense of conscience" agrees with our own which tend to fall along the various political/spiritual lines.

It must have gone over your head.

Any further comment on Bidder 70? Or is

happy jack wrote:
Hero or villain?
More like idiot.
It wasn’t even an abortion clinic that he targeted.

all we're getting out of you?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 4:12 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
I was asking if you agree that such people are heroes even if their sense of conscience fails to fall along the lines of your own political/spiritual beliefs. It must have gone over your head.

Seriously? I'm fairly certain I answered. Let's check...

I wrote:
Yes, we all "believe that those who disrupt perfectly legal activities based upon their sense of conscience, those who believe that they are on the 'good' side in the battle between good and evil, are heroes" so long as their "sense of conscience" agrees with our own which tend to fall along the various political/spiritual lines.

It must have gone over your head.

Any further comment on Bidder 70? Or is

happy jack wrote:
Hero or villain?
More like idiot.
It wasn’t even an abortion clinic that he targeted.

all we're getting out of you?
I thought I had made myself clear when I posted this, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough:

happy jack wrote:
Heretic wrote:
So you do?

Yes, I do. I just wanted to see if that works both ways, but apparently no one wants to give an answer.

At any rate, I do believe that what Bidder 70 did was heroic. He stuck to his principles and he paid the price for it.
And as far as I can gather, you believe that a person is a hero only if he or she suffers while doing your bidding.
Do I have that right, or am I misunderstanding you?
At least you are answering the question, unlike Artie and sparks, who have run away from it every chance they got.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 5:10 pm

happy jack wrote:

At least you are answering the question, unlike Artie and sparks, who have run away from it every chance they got.[/b]
I didn't start the topic,genius. My only comment involved your attempt to derail the thread.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/1/2011, 5:16 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:

At least you are answering the question, unlike Artie and sparks, who have run away from it every chance they got.[/b]
I didn't start the topic,genius. My only comment involved your attempt to derail the thread.
Excuse me.
Could you repeat that?
I couldn't hear you - you were running too fast.
All I got was Doppler Effect.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/2/2011, 2:23 am

happy jack wrote:
I do believe that what Bidder 70 did was heroic. He stuck to his principles and he paid the price for it.
And as far as I can gather, you believe that a person is a hero only if he or she suffers while doing your bidding.

My bidding? Really? *yawn*

I actually hadn't heard about this story prior to this thread, and I remain remarkably... unmoved by the whole thing. "Hero" is a big word to use, especially in a post 9/11 world, and I think it requires more than simply sticking principles. Certainly the principles involved must account for something, too, otherwise we'd be applauding the "heroism" of alcoholics who stick to their principles and drink themselves to death or Christian Scientists who kill their children doing the same.

I applaud his efforts, certainly, but there certainly wasn't a whole lot of risk for him and these leases weren't exactly a linchpin in the fight against global warming.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/2/2011, 2:48 am

Heretic wrote:

I actually hadn't heard about this story prior to this thread, and I remain remarkably... unmoved by the whole thing. "Hero" is a big word to use, especially in a post 9/11 world, and I think it requires more than simply sticking (to) principles.

I couldn't agree more. "Hero" seems really inappropriate in this context.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/2/2011, 8:38 am

Heretic wrote:
... these leases weren't exactly a linchpin in the fight against global warming.
I never claimed that he was a particularly smart hero.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Bidder 70 receives 2 years   8/2/2011, 8:42 am

sparks wrote:

I believe that civil disobedience is exactly what we need to battle the fossil fuel industry ....

.........

This is a classic battle of good vs. evil ....
sparks:
Don't you think it might be wise to find a practical and viable alternative to fossil fuel before you go about trying to destroy the industry?
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