The End of Secret Ballots?

This is simply splendid! We can know who really voted for who and exactly who to blame when bad officials keep getting re-elected.

But of course the end of privacy in voting being discussed in Washington these days is with respect to labor unions. However IMO it is no less ridiculous than the aforementioned.

First, just how fair is it for workers to be intimidated into submitting to unionization if they truly don't want one? Second, with the economy floundering do you REALLY want yet another reason to jobs across the border and around the world? Third, unions are not good for all workers in all cases.

I therefore oppose the government taking away yet one more right to privacy.

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Actually, the intimidation comes from the employer, not the union. Employers fire employees who try to organize workplaces, threaten to close factories and bring in highly paid consultants to keep wages down and unions out. Union wages are 28% higher than nonunion wages for the same work. Do you really believe most workers want to be without a union and work for lower wages?

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage,Shouldn't the workers be the ones who decide whether or not they want a union?

Artie60438 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage,Shouldn't the workers be the ones who decide whether or not they want a union?

And how is a secret ballot preventing that?

But now that I think about it, why shouldn't an employer have a right to be union free if it really wanted to be? Nobody forced the employees to apply for the job. BTW how many unions are there in Congressional and White House staffing anyway? Should they have the right to unionize too?

Mirage wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage,Shouldn't the workers be the ones who decide whether or not they want a union?

And how is a secret ballot preventing that?

But now that I think about it, why shouldn't an employer have a right to be union free if it really wanted to be? Nobody forced the employees to apply for the job. BTW how many unions are there in Congressional and White House staffing anyway? Should they have the right to unionize too?

At least you are being honest by admitting you don't believe in unions. Unions are the only protection the common man has against the greed of the corporate world. Wal-Mart has contributed millions of dollars to defeating the Free Choice Act.

Mirage wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage,Shouldn't the workers be the ones who decide whether or not they want a union?

And how is a secret ballot preventing that?

But now that I think about it, why shouldn't an employer have a right to be union free if it really wanted to be? Nobody forced the employees to apply for the job. BTW how many unions are there in Congressional and White House staffing anyway? Should they have the right to unionize too?

I know some businesses don't want unions and have threatened to close shop if a union were to enter their business. Before someone asks for a link, I know this first hand from someone close. With the costs related to unions, it would bankrupt them so they would just shut down before a union could get in (and this is a huge company with big investors backing them). So yeah, when it comes to the bottom line, employers should have a right to be union free.

It actually depends on what union you are in. Some serve no purpose but to collect union dues and do nothing for the employee. They also make it hard to get rid of employees that are not good workers.

They also make it hard to get rid of employees that are not good workers.

Which reminds me. I remember back in the 70s hearing of an overhead crane operator in one of the mills who kept getting into trouble for being high on the job but the union managed to help him keep his job time after time despite the danger he posed to other workers, who of course were union members too!

Ohhmama wrote:

Mirage wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage,Shouldn't the workers be the ones who decide whether or not they want a union?

And how is a secret ballot preventing that?

But now that I think about it, why shouldn't an employer have a right to be union free if it really wanted to be? Nobody forced the employees to apply for the job. BTW how many unions are there in Congressional and White House staffing anyway? Should they have the right to unionize too?

I know some businesses don't want unions and have threatened to close shop if a union were to enter their business. Before someone asks for a link, I know this first hand from someone close. With the costs related to unions, it would bankrupt them so they would just shut down before a union could get in (and this is a huge company with big investors backing them). So yeah, when it comes to the bottom line, employers should have a right to be union free.

The Federal government has recognized the rights of workers to form unions for over 70 years. Since you don't seem to think workers should be able to organize, what kind of workplace are you going to seek out when you finish school? Many of the hospitals have unions in place. Are you going to seek employer at the higher wage union workplaces or the lower wage non-union workplaces?

party42 wrote:

It actually depends on what union you are in. Some serve no purpose but to collect union dues and do nothing for the employee. They also make it hard to get rid of employees that are not good workers.

I agree with you there- one example would be the teachers union. They make it extremely difficult to get rid of bad, inept teachers.

sparks wrote:

Ohhmama wrote:

Mirage wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

Mirage wrote:

It does three things to level the playing field for employees and employers:

No, it does only 1 thing that matters most. It makes it easier to target and intimidate people who want no part of a union or a particular union.

Mirage,Shouldn't the workers be the ones who decide whether or not they want a union?

And how is a secret ballot preventing that?

But now that I think about it, why shouldn't an employer have a right to be union free if it really wanted to be? Nobody forced the employees to apply for the job. BTW how many unions are there in Congressional and White House staffing anyway? Should they have the right to unionize too?

I know some businesses don't want unions and have threatened to close shop if a union were to enter their business. Before someone asks for a link, I know this first hand from someone close. With the costs related to unions, it would bankrupt them so they would just shut down before a union could get in (and this is a huge company with big investors backing them). So yeah, when it comes to the bottom line, employers should have a right to be union free.

The Federal government has recognized the rights of workers to form unions for over 70 years. Since you don't seem to think workers should be able to organize, what kind of workplace are you going to seek out when you finish school? Many of the hospitals have unions in place. Are you going to seek employer at the higher wage union workplaces or the lower wage non-union workplaces?

Uh- I believe my quote was that employers should have a right to be union free- not I "don't seem to think workers should be able to organize".

As far as where I seek employment, I'll worry about that when the times come. Right now I just hope there are jobs available when I graduate.

Ohhmama wrote:

Sparks wrote:

Ohhmama wrote:

I know some businesses don't want unions and have threatened to close shop if a union were to enter their business. Before someone asks for a link, I know this first hand from someone close. With the costs related to unions, it would bankrupt them so they would just shut down before a union could get in (and this is a huge company with big investors backing them). So yeah, when it comes to the bottom line, employers should have a right to be union free.

The Federal government has recognized the rights of workers to form unions for over 70 years. Since you don't seem to think workers should be able to organize, what kind of workplace are you going to seek out when you finish school? Many of the hospitals have unions in place. Are you going to seek employer at the higher wage union workplaces or the lower wage non-union workplaces?

Uh- I believe my quote was that employers should have a right to be union free- not I "don't seem to think workers should be able to organize".

As far as where I seek employment, I'll worry about that when the times come. Right now I just hope there are jobs available when I graduate.

When you say that you believe employers should have the right to be union free, that means that all the employees that work for those companies have no rights to organize. Once you stipulate that companies have the right to deny collective bargaining, you can pretty much kiss unions good bye and watch wages and benefits rapidly be slashed to third world levels. That may be something you think is OK but I don't think employers should ever have the right to stop their workers from organizing.

In MOST (not all) instances, the American worker is over compensated. A very good example is the auto worker. Same for the construction trades. This country will be re-thinking it's labor forces. Why do you think most jobs went to China and India?
"Oooo, what's with the HUGE avatar?"

The corporations opposing the Employee Free Choice Act have spent $200 million dollars trying to stop this legislation.
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/author/Pat%20G./
Imagine If Anti-EFCA Corporations Used Their Lobbying Money To Pay Their Employees Union Wages… »
Today, Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) and Rep. George Miller (D-CA) introduced the Employee Free Choice Act in both houses of Congress. The bill would give workers a fairer path to forming unions, affording them an opportunity to bargain for higher wages and better benefits.

Predictably, this has set off a swarm of lobbying, as business leaders, in conjunction with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, try to squash the legislation. The Chamber and and rest of the anti-Employee Free Choice lobby “have said they will spend about $200 million on advertising and lobbying to block the measure.” That’s $200 million dollars to ensure that workers can’t have a fair shot at earning better wages.

But if that $200 million was instead put toward raising workers’ wages to union levels, it could do a lot of good. In fact, about 85,091 workers could earn the union wage premium — the difference between unionized workers’ wages and their non-union counterparts on average — for six months with that money

I support the EFCA 100%.
Any democrat that opposes.... they will be on my shit-list in 2010.

WhitingLib wrote:

I support the EFCA 100%.
Any democrat that opposes.... they will be on my shit-list in 2010.

Here is a link where you can sign a petition to show your support for the Employee Free Choice Act sponsored by the Catholics for Working Families. It is great to see religious groups stepping up as advocates for social justice.http://www.catholicsforworkingfamilies.org/
Catholics Stand with Working Familes
While CEOs receive massive salaries and bonuses, working families struggle. The Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) will reform our labor law and build a more fair economy; an economy that promotes families, values human life and serves everyone, not just the super rich. We need a labor law that honors all of our brothers and sisters, especially the most vulnerable. By supporting EFCA, we stand beside the workers who sweep our floors, who harvest our food and who build our homes. Join with us. Stand with working families. Support the Employee Free Choice Act.

sparks wrote:

Catholics Stand with Working Familes
While CEOs receive massive salaries and bonuses, working families struggle. The Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) will reform our labor law and build a more fair economy; an economy that promotes families, values human life and serves everyone, not just the super rich. We need a labor law that honors all of our brothers and sisters, especially the most vulnerable. By supporting EFCA, we stand beside the workers who sweep our floors, who harvest our food and who build our homes. Join with us. Stand with working families. Support the Employee Free Choice Act.

If you are so against CEO's making sooooo much money, why don't you go back to school, get a degree, and a Masters Degree, and become one. Don't say you don't have the time or money to invest, because for all the time you waste here venting your anger against the people who actually have made something of their lives, you just may have the time to become a CEO.

You know Lois just reading his first couple of sentences I was thinking along those lines too. Why do we have the belief that everyone needs to get an advanced degree and go work for some huge corporation and then complain that the boss is getting paid too much?

There was a time when just a steady source of income, such as working on the family farm or in the mom & pop store was good enough. Why are we so driven as a culture to earn & spend more? In a word - GREED!

The irony is that same greed is destroying us both individually and as a country. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie!

We need a labor law that honors all of our brothers and sisters, especially the most vulnerable. By supporting EFCA, we stand beside the workers who sweep our floors, who harvest our food and who build our homes. Join with us. Stand with working families. Support the Employee Free Choice Act.

I've got a feeling that this will more than likely just grow the lines at the unemployment office. But hey, there will be plenty of solidarity as they all march out to spend up them benefit checks on foreign imports down at the local Wal*Mart!

Mirage wrote:

You know Lois just reading his first couple of sentences I was thinking along those lines too. Why do we have the belief that everyone needs to get an advanced degree and go work for some huge corporation and then complain that the boss is getting paid too much?

There was a time when just a steady source of income, such as working on the family farm or in the mom & pop store was good enough. Why are we so driven as a culture to earn & spend more? In a word - GREED!

The irony is that same greed is destroying us both individually and as a country. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie!

The thing is, if he's whining about making all this money, he's admitting that he'd like to be one of them. Is it greed or jealousy?

We didn't have a union when I worked for a now-defunct electronic business form manufacturing company. I was told by fellow employees not to even mention anything about forming a union, or they would fire me.

I was a Norma RAE back then, and things were gross. We as forms designers were laden with mind-boggling, "get it out fast" designing checks, electronic forms, etc., we were under-paid. There were no benefits. Back then we started out 10-12.00 an hour, when the usual base pay was near $20.00. I teamed up with a "Wendy" who was as rebelious as I was, demanded at least snack machines in the lunch room, more breaks, double time on weekends, not time and half; better upgrades for the computers as they were introduced; most of all...a PENSION! A 401k plan, and better insurance coverage. Of course I couldn't get fired, my ex's best friend who owned the company, was friends with us for years and hired me, after I had the kids, and the ex sold HIS print shop.

I would walk around and yell, "UNION!" in Tim, the owners' face when he'd walk by. Of course he knew me, and put up with me. We got all but a union, but ended up with the rest. Unfortunately, had we a union in place, the place would have grown with the economy, being he was in the Forbes' magazine, Chicago's what'eva magazine as being the first company to use soy-based ink. Nationally, we did Times Magazine's insides or covers, and eventually, nationally, we had all the printing from all the auto dealers for printing forms and stuff. We had hospitals all over. Unfortunately, he got greedy.
Thought he was smart....but failed the company.

He stole money from his own company. People there were faithful to his father, worked there for 35 plus years, with no pension. Wendy and I tried changing things, just as we got close to organizing with a union, I was the first left go....and guess what? The only one with a generous severance pay, vacation pay, and of course unemployment. He failed his own future by not investing in better quality printing presses, and he had the whole nation-wide in his hand, when it came to customers for printing.

Had we had a union, he'd still be in business. He made money off of us, kicked us out the door...the only gradification I got out of the deal was finding out he was no friend at all. He robbed his own partner of his stake in the company, and fired him after me (he was a relative). The company would have been in business to this day, if a union was formed. I made off, but the rest of the poor souls...walked away with nothing. I believe in unions for certain reasons: better the company and being paid fairly. At that particular time, hardly anyone knew the Macs, etc. Stripping and plating, was just the next step away from being replaced with sending our work straight to the presses, eliminating the paste-up, film, stripping, etc.

Tim was so scared of unions....but in this case, a union would have saved the little boy's silver spoon he was born with. He didn't know crap about the business...we little workers knew more than he pretended to know. We never pretended to know more than we knew.

A union would have paid us enormously more back then, and for some reason, the word, "UNION" scared little Timmy silly. Wondering if he still has his house out in Frankfort, IL with the indoor pool. Huh, the dude didn't know squat about nothing; I imagine by now he lost his home, divorced for the second time, and is living in the woods. What goes around, comes around.

Unions for caregivers are a given blessing, considering it is a very low paying job in Indiana compared to IL where you make double. The unions back up caregivers because of legal rules are in place, and they help if you get accused of something you did with say, an alzhiemer patient.

Places like Walmart can very well afford unions, but get away with it, by buying everything cheap in China, whatnot, and paying workers enough to send them to the medicaid and food stamp office.

Unions also paid so highly that many places went overseas and leave us with no jobs. There are good sides to unions, and bad sides. In the case scenario I was in, I was underpaid. I was without a pension. I changed that. I made sure (and Wendy) that if we were working double shifts, give us god darn vending machines to supplement our long-lost lunch.

The idiots that made money off of us - wonder how they are faring now'days? Ran into one old lady that worked there under Tim's dad, and she was totally shocked at what she gets under SS. She had 35 plus years under her belt with no pension. At least I was young enough to start over; she had to settle in retirement...

The point is, in some cases, UNIONS are good. Some cases, UNIONS ARE REALLY a bad idea. For the lower class they are good. On the loss of jobs going overseas, I blame them.

I wish with all my heart all the jobs will come back here, pay a fair wage, which would lift the economy up...and the politicians, instead of raising taxes on everything, will get rid of the patronage, the usless repeat layering of government jobs to folks they know...but you know what? It just got worse with Obama doing the opposite of what he claimed he would do while campaigning.

On the other hand, while working for the Post Office, the union covered up for an alcoholic who stopped at every bar on his route. When he died, they went in his house and burned all the mail he didn't deliver. I then knew why I never got the annual b'day card or money from some aunts....they covered for the dead guy, even when he wouldn't end up in jail, but maybe the supervisors' would have been held accountable. That's when you don't want a union. LOL

The storm hasn't even entered our atmosphere in the US...brace yourself.

Our parents are the last generation of that line where, "your job will guarantee you a pension".

I am scared for our generation and many to come.

Hey, Admin - I admit I don't tune in everyday, but I'm getting so confused here.

I wanna know...what the hell is going on here....!!!!!

I guess because I don't tune in everyday....well, I miss a lot of points. I just don't get this post by you. Can you please explain and bring me up to date. Just curious. Thanks.

I guess because I don't tune in everyday....well, I miss a lot of points.

Good news! There's a linky at the top of the main page that says "new posts."

LOL

Thought I admit I myself do miss more than a few posts too.