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happy jack

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PostSubject: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 11:04 am

Fair or unfair?
Any thoughts?


http://www.mrc.org/bozellcolumns/columns/2011/20110627070157.aspx

Playing Hardball on Softball
A gay softball league insists that "inclusion" has its limits: they need to throw out the "straight ringers" who are ruining their games.

By: L. Brent Bozell
Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:58 AM EDT

Traditional organizations like the Boy Scouts of America have long been under siege by atheists and pro-gay lobbyists who insist they shouldn’t have the freedom of association to maintain their God-fearing identity. But you think that’s maddening? How about the ultimate cultural flip-flop of a gay softball league going to federal court to insist that bisexual or heterosexual players can’t play ball with them?

In Seattle, Reagan-appointed U.S. District Judge John Coughenour ruled that a group called the North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance has a First Amendment right to limit the number of bisexual or heterosexual players.

"It would be difficult for NAGAAA to effectively emphasize a vision of the gay lifestyle rooted in athleticism, competition and sportsmanship if it were prohibited from maintaining a gay identity," the judge wrote. In other words, the gay Left now can have it both ways. They can force “anti-discrimination” rules on everybody else but they don’t have to follow them.

The gay softball alliance oversees gay softball leagues in dozens of U.S. cities and runs an annual tournament called the Gay Softball World Series. Three men claimed in a lawsuit filed last year that their team's second-place finish in the 2008 tournament in Washington state was nullified because officials ruled they were bisexual, not utterly gay, and thus their team exceeded the limit of two non-gay players.

D2, the San Francisco-based team the men played on, was disqualified after others at the tournament questioned their sexuality and filed a protest. Rumors had persisted for years about whether D2 was stacking its team with “straight ringers.” In addition to the three plaintiffs, the team had two designated straight players.

Isn’t it strange that gay activists would cheer the inclusion of openly gay athletes in professional sports, with all the pride they can muster in their talents, but insist in federal court on throwing out “straight ringers” – all but admitting gay athletes can’t compete with them on the field?

At least the judge said one fraction of the plaintiffs’ case can proceed toward a trial set for August 1 – over the sexual interrogation these three players faced. They were marched one by one into a conference room at the tournament in suburban Seattle in front of about 25 people and asked about their "private sexual attractions and desires." The gay softball alliance argued that under questioning, the men -- Stephen Apilado, Laron Charles and John Russ, all African-Americans -- were somehow not forthcoming enough about their sex lives.

Minutes of this interrogation revealed that Charles claimed to be gay but acknowledged being married to a woman. (Curses!) And Apilado initially said he was both gay and straight but then acknowledged being more attracted to women. (Gross!)

The organization says it has always considered bisexuals to meet the definition of "gay" for roster purposes, but the minutes also note that one official involved in the decision to disqualify D2 insisted that "this is not a bisexual world series. This is a gay world series."

In a statement, Charles, who was also D2's manager complained, "When you play softball, you never expect for anyone to corner you and ask you personal questions about who you are and what you do. It was emotional for me as a coach to go in there and not only get grilled, but watch my team be put in this situation."

According to Charles, people inside the hearing room were texting private information to people outside while the questioning was taking place. "When I came out of the hearing room, people I didn't even know were making comments about my marriage and other things we said in the hearing," he said.

In court documents, the gay softball alliance insisted this kind of “protective discrimination” is not unique: the Black American Softball Association allows just four "non-black" players per team and demands birth certificates as proof of race; the Native American World Series has a cap of two non-Indian softball players per team and requires players to carry "Indian identification"; and the SMASH Softball Tournament for Asian/Pacific Islanders allows only three non-Asian players and requires "proof of ethnicity."

The three players are being represented by the National Center for Lesbian Rights, which sued a gay organization for the first time to stay consistent with their typical opposition to groups like the Boy Scouts having their own private exclusions. The gay-softball league is a “public accommodation,” they argued, and cannot discriminate on sexual orientation.

Okay, so let’s launch the White American Irish-Catholic Heterosexual League. It will have a two-gay limit per team and any transgression will be disqualified as “too gay.” Oh, and no Jews, no blacks, and certainly no Methodists. (A couple of Anglicans, maybe.)

See how crazy we’ve all gone?

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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 11:20 am

You started the thread. What's your opinion?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 11:58 am

Scorpion wrote:
You started the thread. What's your opinion?
Unfair to heteros and bis.
If, as a group, you demand non-discrimination then, at the very least, you ought to practice it.
Okay?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 12:09 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
You started the thread. What's your opinion?
Unfair to heteros and bis.
If, as a group, you demand non-discrimination then, at the very least, you ought to practice it.
Okay?

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 12:16 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
You started the thread. What's your opinion?
Unfair to heteros and bis.
If, as a group, you demand non-discrimination then, at the very least, you ought to practice it.
Okay?

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
The point is not why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league - the point is why they should not be allowed to.
Any thoughts on that?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 1:03 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
You started the thread. What's your opinion?
Unfair to heteros and bis.
If, as a group, you demand non-discrimination then, at the very least, you ought to practice it.
Okay?

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
I thought the exact same thing.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 1:04 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
[b]The point is not why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league - the point is why they should not be allowed to.
Any thoughts on that?/b]
Did you even read the article you posted? They already are allowed.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 3:08 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Unfair to heteros and bis.
If, as a group, you demand non-discrimination then, at the very least, you ought to practice it.
Okay?

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
The point is not why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league - the point is why they should not be allowed to.
Any thoughts on that?

Is it really any different from (for example) barring boys from participating in girls sports?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 10:49 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
The point is not why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league - the point is why they should not be allowed to.
Any thoughts on that?/b]
Did you even read the article you posted? They already are allowed.
Yes, I read the article - especially this part:

Three men claimed in a lawsuit filed last year that their team's second-place finish in the 2008 tournament in Washington state was nullified because officials ruled they were bisexual, not utterly gay, and thus their team exceeded the limit of two non-gay players.

Would a limit of two (and only two) gays in the military be acceptable to you?
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays being allowed to marry be acceptable to you?
Think about that and get back to me.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 10:56 pm

Scorpion wrote:


Is it really any different from (for example) barring boys from participating in girls sports?
You said it, not me, Scorpion.
If you happen to subscribe to the stereotype that the more effeminate among us cannot compete with actual men, then that is your issue, not mine.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 11:04 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Unfair to heteros and bis.
If, as a group, you demand non-discrimination then, at the very least, you ought to practice it.
Okay?

Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
I thought the exact same thing.
When it comes to equal rights, I had no idea that one party was required to justify his desire to exercise those rights. I mean, seriously - I always thought rights were rights. For example, the 1st amendment doesn't require a citizen to state the reasons he feels he is entitled to free speech, does it?
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/27/2011, 11:41 pm

I don't even know why gays gotta flaunt their sexual orientation.

It's like our parents never went around or STRAIGHTS don't run around and announce their STRAIGHT.

I did mention I have a few guy friends that are gay, and one of the things we bicker about is why do couples have to explain to anyone what goes on in a bedroom, anyway?

You can go without saying...everyone usually knows whether you're gay or not.

As far as gay clubs, sports, bars...that is a personal thing...and I think they should make it known what the thing is about who is playing, but let it open...so people who don't feel comfortable won't participate, those who don't mind, will probably join because they know the person(s) and consider them friends, and would probably have fun participating.

Sounds contratictory, but I think you all know what I'm trying to get at.

Wish this gay marriage, union, etc., was overwith, so life can move forward.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 12:34 am

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:


Is it really any different from (for example) barring boys from participating in girls sports?
You said it, not me, Scorpion.
If you happen to subscribe to the stereotype that the more effeminate among us cannot compete with actual men, then that is your issue, not mine.

What an utterly predictable dodge of a simple question.

OK, is it any different from (for example) barring girls from participating in boys sports? How is it different from not allowing women to compete in the NBA?

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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 7:33 am

A better question would be about men competing in the WNBA. I'm assuming the straight men are better athletes than the gay men. Why not just have a GLBT league, with no straights? I'm wondering about the guys playing for a gay team. Is it that important to be the best player on the team?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 10:00 am

KarenT wrote:
A better question would be about men competing in the WNBA. I'm assuming the straight men are better athletes than the gay men.

I don't think that there is any reason to assume that straight people are any better athletes than gay people.

KarenT wrote:

Why not just have a GLBT league, with no straights?

Good question, Karen. I have no idea. Maybe it's to allow some straight friends to play too?

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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 10:59 am

You would think if there are, for instance, an equal mix of straights and gays, there would be a parks league where they could all be on the same team.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 11:03 am

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:


Is it really any different from (for example) barring boys from participating in girls sports?
You said it, not me, Scorpion.
If you happen to subscribe to the stereotype that the more effeminate among us cannot compete with actual men, then that is your issue, not mine.

What an utterly predictable dodge of a simple question.

OK, is it any different from (for example) barring girls from participating in boys sports? How is it different from not allowing women to compete in the NBA?

Dodge?
I don't think so, as I am clearly not the one who derailed the thread by framing the debate as boys vs. girls rather than gays vs. straights.
If anyone is dodging anything, it is you and Artie, dodging the simple question of why discrimination based on sexual orientation is fine and dandy in this case, but not so fine and dandy in others.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 11:07 am

KarenT wrote:
Why not just have a GLBT league, with no straights?
Or how about a straight team with no GLBTs allowed?
How well do you think that would go over on MSNBC or the New York Times editorial pages?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 11:51 am

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:

[b]The point is not why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league - the point is why they should not be allowed to.
Any thoughts on that?/b]
Did you even read the article you posted? They already are allowed.
Yes, I read the article - especially this part:/b]

Three men claimed in a lawsuit filed last year that their team's second-place finish in the 2008 tournament in Washington state was nullified because officials ruled they were bisexual, not utterly gay, and thus their team exceeded the limit of two non-gay players.
Yeah,well it clearly states that non-gays are allowed to play. So your statement was dead wrong.

Quote :
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays in the military be acceptable to you?
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays being allowed to marry be acceptable to you?
Think about that and get back to me.
Let me know when you want to discuss the actual topic you started.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 11:55 am

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:


Yeah. Well any thoughts as to why a heterosexual would want to play in a gay softball league?
I thought the exact same thing.
[b]When it comes to equal rights, I had no idea that one party was required to justify his desire to exercise those rights. I mean, seriously - I always thought rights were rights. For example, the 1st amendment doesn't require a citizen to state the reasons he feels he is entitled to free speech, does it?[/b
No,nor does it exclude me from questioning their motives.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 11:55 am

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You said it, not me, Scorpion.
If you happen to subscribe to the stereotype that the more effeminate among us cannot compete with actual men, then that is your issue, not mine.

What an utterly predictable dodge of a simple question.

OK, is it any different from (for example) barring girls from participating in boys sports? How is it different from not allowing women to compete in the NBA?

Dodge?
I don't think so, as I am clearly not the one who derailed the thread by framing the debate as boys vs. girls rather than gays vs. straights.

I am not "derailing the thread" by asking a simple question. My question is just that, a question, and is not an attempt to "frame the debate." It's merely an attempt to ascertain if this is actually discrimination, or if it is something else... and I really don't understand why you're refusing to answer any questions.

happy jack wrote:
If anyone is dodging anything, it is you and Artie, dodging the simple question of why discrimination based on sexual orientation is fine and dandy in this case, but not so fine and dandy in others.

Yeah. Well I can't speak for Artie, but I have never said that I think that discrimination based on sexual orientation is "fine and dandy in this case." I've never even heard of this group before, so I haven't formed an opinion yet... that's why I'm asking questions.

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 11:58 am

Artie60438 wrote:


Quote :
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays in the military be acceptable to you?
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays being allowed to marry be acceptable to you?
Think about that and get back to me.
Let me know when you want to discuss the actual topic you started.
While I have been discussing the topic I started, you have been dodging the issue as to why it is fine for gays to discriminate against straights by allowing them only minuscule and token representation in a given endeavor.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 12:02 pm

UrRight wrote:
I don't even know why gays gotta flaunt their sexual orientation.

It's like our parents never went around or STRAIGHTS don't run around and announce their STRAIGHT.
Maybe if they were the ones being oppressed they would have. Hetero couples have held hands,kissed,and shown signs of affection for each other in public for ages.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 12:23 pm

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:


Quote :
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays in the military be acceptable to you?
Would a limit of two (and only two) gays being allowed to marry be acceptable to you?
Think about that and get back to me.
Let me know when you want to discuss the actual topic you started.
[b]While I have been discussing the topic I started, you have been dodging the issue as to why it is fine for gays to discriminate against straights by allowing them only minuscule and token representation in a given endeavor.[/b
Really? By trying to inject gays in the military & gay marriage. You sure could have fooled me.

I don't see it as discrimination for the simple reason there are only 9 or 10 members on a team. If you don't set some sort of limit it kinda defeats the whole purpose of the league.

Other leagues of ethnic persuasions limit the number of outside players allowed and even require documented proof of their participants yet the author apparently turns a blind eye to those.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Discrimination by gays   6/28/2011, 12:26 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
[/i]
Yeah,well it clearly states that non-gays are allowed to play. So your statement was dead wrong.
[/quote]
You are absolutely correct - non-gays are allowed to play. So that apparently means that the gays are not discriminating against all non-gays. They are merely discriminating against all non-gays except two. Now that I have admitted my egregious error and have, hopefully, clarified my meaning, I trust that the whinylittlegirlfest instigated by my unintentional misstatement will come to an end.
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