Edumacation

From another thread:

bigwhiteguy wrote:

I had statistics in high school. I agree, it probably isn't taught in high school anymore. We also had to graph the results, and write an algorithm. Walking through some of the schools lately (and I will not mention any school names) it looks as if these students have a hard time with General Math. And there are also many "reading labs", and books out in the open areas look like the reading books I had in the fourth grade. Second thing Obama should do is to get rid of the No Child Left Behind fiasco.

I really wonder what is being taught anymore.
I am taking classes at Ivy Tech right now, and I cannot believe the lack of general knowledge the younger students have.
In sociology 3 of the 9 in the class had never heard of Freud.
In English the youngsters all thought that arguemnent was yelling at each other.
In Algebra....well, let's not go there.

Although NCLB has its problems, it did focus our attention on the schools. I hope that it is replaced with something better, not just discarded.

Hippa is not a bad law, just it needs to be tweaked to automatically include specific people on the approved list

NCLB needs to be repealed. All public schools only teach for the Standardized tests now. And that has ruined public schools

Which is exactly why my son goes to a private school, he gets a better education because they are not geared towards just a test

I agree BWG; the trouble starts at home. Little Johnnie and Janie are incapable of doing wrong or being disruptive. They are taught from a young age that they are the most important person in the room. Maybe they aren't taught that intentionally, but they learn that nonetheless.
When they are disciplined, parents threaten lawsuits, rights groups get up in arms, and a real circus results.
Bring back reform school and paddles. Tell the parents that if their child acts like an animal they will be removed.

BigWhiteGuy wrote:

You would not believe the behavioral problems these teachers and administrators face every day. These kids are animals. They are not there to learn, and in my opinion, are there to disrupt and recruit. These kids should be thrown out of the school altogether. Yes, they should be left behind, and get out of the way of kids that want to make an improvement of themselves.

Considering that I've sat in these classes only a few years ago I am going to have to disagree with this statement. You've got to have teachers and administration that are there to do more than collect more than a paycheck. I've had teachers that take charge of their class and the students weren't going to get away with shit in that person's class. Then you have the ones that frankly don't care if 2 or 3 students disrupt and ruin the entire class.

Yikes. Maybe my old high school wasn't that bad after all.

BigWhiteGuy wrote:

I am in schools almost once a week, not as an educator, but as a "consultant", mainly regarding the condition of the buildings. You would not believe the behavioral problems these teachers and administrators face every day. These kids are animals. They are not there to learn, and in my opinion, are there to disrupt and recruit. These kids should be thrown out of the school altogether. Yes, they should be left behind, and get out of the way of kids that want to make an improvement of themselves.

This is the kind of argument that demagogues typically use to gain support from people who never consider the long-term implications of simply "throwing kids out of school". Once you throw these kids out of school, lacking any of the skills needed to earn a living, what is your solution to dealing with all the social problems that accompany such short sighted thinking?

So then what is an answer for disruptive students whose parent(s) don't care?
What about the rights of the other kids to an education?
What about some form of alternative school?
Maybe tweaking the standrds a bit so that every student isn't on the college track, after all, not all students are college material.

C'mon Bill the answer is to spend more money :dyno:

Bill B wrote:

So then what is an answer for disruptive students whose parent(s) don't care?
What about the rights of the other kids to an education?
What about some form of alternative school?
Maybe tweaking the standrds a bit so that every student isn't on the college track, after all, not all students are college material.

I am surprised that you don't have more thoughts on how to solve this problem. After all, you did run for school board in an urban school district that deals with the challenges of trying to educate students coming from low income homes. It's very easy to glibly say,So as I see it, let them "hang out" and just get out of the way like BWG did.However,that kind of short sighted thinking doesn't address the future costs of dealing with the students you toss out of school in the criminal justice system when they are adults. I believe the goal of the public schools should be to use whatever resources it takes to educate all our students. I would advocate setting up residential boot camps to deal with the incorrigibles that can't be taught in conventional schools. I would also look for grants from the federal government to increase the # of programs that the career center provides.

What's needed are "social adjustment" schools,where the bad apples can be sent so they don't disrupt the students that actually want to learn. Chicago had them when I went to school. I don't know if they still do.

Artie60438 wrote:

What's needed are "social adjustment" schools,where the bad apples can be sent so they don't disrupt the students that actually want to learn. Chicago had them when I went to school. I don't know if they still do.

Did you have to attend one, or did you turn into a trouble maker when you started posting? The trolls on the other board cannot stop talking about you. LOL!!!

I have lots of thoughts on it, but I don't have (or claim to have) a monopoly on ideas.
I truly want to know what others are thinking.
I believe that early and often parental contact will help reduce some of the problems, but some parents just don't want to hear it. What do we do with those kids?
I would advocate an alternative school for the troublemakers with community service requirements starting at about 6th grade for all students.
Maybe working at a soup kitchen would open some eyes. Picking up trash in the parks, etc. will not only help our community, but can also be a warning to some, i.e., if you don't get your head out your ass, you'll be doing this forever.
Another problem is, and I hate to say it, that for some kids the academic curriculum is just beyond their abilities. Some european countries have testing/placement programs at about the middle school level that determine your high shcool course track.
Perfect ideas? No, but neither are they totally out of the realm of possibility either.
We also need programs that challenge our more gifted students as well.

sparks wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

What's needed are "social adjustment" schools,where the bad apples can be sent so they don't disrupt the students that actually want to learn. Chicago had them when I went to school. I don't know if they still do.

Did you have to attend one, or did you turn into a trouble maker when you started posting? The trolls on the other board cannot stop talking about you. LOL!!!

We didn't have the Internet back then. The loonies are still chasing my ghost? Too funny :rolfcry:

BigWhiteGuy wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:

What's needed are "social adjustment" schools,where the bad apples can be sent so they don't disrupt the students that actually want to learn. Chicago had them when I went to school. I don't know if they still do.

There a quite a few in the South Suburbs. And they are private. The parents are responsible for tuition, or else they are out.

In Chicago they were public and I think there were only 2 or 3,1 of them being a residential facility where Northeastern University now sits.

What happens if they get kicked out or their parents don't pay and they are still of the age where they must attend school? They go right back into the regular school?

All of you make valid points about the problems that plague our public schools:

#1 Problem) NCLB emphasizes minimal skills through frequent testing. The arts, vocational programs and gifted/talented programs are left behind. I'm looking at my testing schedule for the next 4 weeks and of the 25 days that I am supposed to be teaching, 12 of them will be spent preparing for the test, testing, and subsequent test analysis. About 50% of my time will actually be instructional.
Solution: Repeal or severely amend this law. The impact of this simplistic approach to school reform has been devastating.

#2 Problem) Lack of parental support. I'm not talking about the physical presence of parents in the classroom, I'm talking about doing their jobs of raising children at home. Many parents in urban setting lack the ability or values, or both, to help their children. They depend on the schools to provide almost every aspect of raising a child including disciplining, feeding, providing emotional support and of course the additional academic practice that needs to be happening at home.
Solution: Make parents more accountable. If the parent is on welfare, which many are whose children are underperforming, make them earn their money by volunteering in the schools with specific standards for keeping that position. If their children do not attend school, no check.

#3 Problem) Lack of administrative support. Principals are so intimidated by parents and their threats of litigation that they have taken a "hands off" approach to disciplining students. If a student is sent to the principal for behavioral problems they are sent back to the teacher and the teacher is blamed for not being able to control his/her classroom. It's a vicious cycle.
Solution: The rules are already in place. Provide consistent, immediate consequences for rule breakers.

#4 Problem) Lack of teacher qualifications. The whole idea that unions are responsible for keeping bad teachers is oversimplifying the problem. Unions simply demand due process and procedures for dismissing bad teachers - which is fair. I've seen good administrators get rid of bad teachers in 6 months or less. I've also seen good administrators improve the quality of teaching by doing what they are supposed to be doing - visiting the classrooms and providing feedback and support when necessary.
Solution: If there is something in the contract that prevents the ineffective teacher from being dismissed then start the process of omitting it. Colleges and universities also need more challenging course work on how children learn. It is too easy to get a teaching degree.

#5 Problem) The students themselves. Way too many students have it in their heads that they can do whatever they want without consequences, probably because they have done so at home. This topic can go on for pages.
Solution: Time to start kicking a$$. In Indiana corporal punishment is still legal - use it responsibly.

#6 Problem) Lack of responsible spending. It was mentioned above to start an alternative school for those students who disrupt the classroom - excellent idea, but very costly. This school must provide additional security (the meanest, baddest bastards around) , smaller class sizes, additional counseling and social workers, and additional pay for teachers and administrators who are willing to take on such assignments. The amount of money wasted in our schools can help fund this concept.
Solution: Make sure the fiscal management of the school corporation includes people who actually know something about fiscal management.

There are, of course, more problems and more solutions. (These views are from a teacher with 25+ years of experience in an urban setting and in no way reflect......)