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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   8/13/2018, 5:00 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
No one pays for my right to firearms.

Exactly (Well, ignoring the millions of dollars associated with the hundreds of thousands of Americans that are victims of gun violence each year, levels not seen in other countries.  But yes, no direct monetary cost.)
I beg to differ on the cost associated with gun violence as a result of the Trump Worshiping Gun Nut's right to carry a gun.
A breakdown of the $229 billion gun violence tab that American taxpayers are paying every year
Quote :
American taxpayers pay roughly $12.8 million every day to cover the costs of gun-related deaths and injuries— and that is a conservative estimate, according to a new report released by Mother Jones on the cost of gun violence in America.

The true cost, however, is not fully known, partly because of the vast sum that's been spent by the NRA and other gun rights activists to shut down research related to firearms, and partly because of the sheer number of expenses incurred when someone is shot.

What is known is that taxpayers cover roughly 87% of these costs, which include, but are not limited to:
Medical treatment

"Maybe $5 million?" responded one woman when asked how much her gun wound had cost between hospital bills, physical therapy, trauma counseling, in-home care, wheelchairs, customized vans, and lost income. Many people also have long-term problems such as bowel issues, arthritis problems, and chronic pain that keeps them hooked on pain medication and returning to the hospital.
Legal fees

Legal proceedings for the Aurora movie theater killer reached $5.5 million before the trial even got underway this spring — calling 9,000 prospective jurors to try the sole suspect, James Eagan Holmes, proved expensive.

Long-term prison costs


Keeping individuals charged with a gun-related crime costs the government and taxpayers more than $5.2 billion annually. It is the largest direct expense incurred by gun violence, according to Mother Jones.
Long-term medical and disability expenses

Victims of gun violence often suffer injuries so severe that they require round-the-clock care for the rest of their lives — and survivors can often live much longer than expected. The kind of skilled nursing care needed for a victim who is paralyzed or brain damaged can cost "upwards of $1.7 million." If the victim is a Medicaid patient, taxpayers foot the bill.
Mental health care

Trauma from gun injuries and homicides account for $410 million annually in direct mental-health costs, according to Mother Jones. "But that sum would rise substantially if all gun victims and their families could afford to seek counseling."

Trauma from gun injuries and homicides account for $410 million annually in direct mental-health costs, according to Mother Jones. "But that sum would rise substantially if all gun victims and their families could afford to seek counseling."

Emergency services

A 5-mile ambulance ride for a single victim can cost upwards of $800. Combined with the fees of inumerable other emergency services, each gun injury requiring hospitalization costs about $583,000.
Police investigations

When even one person dies or is injured in a shooting, officers are required to respond and launch a full investigation into the attack. As Mother Jones notes, when a gunman opened fire at a shopping complex near Portland, Oregon in December 2012, "more than 150 officers from at least 13 local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies responded. The investigation that lasted more than three months and culminated in a report nearly 1,000 pages long." These lengthy investigations are largely paid for by taxpayers.

Security enhancements


Tightening security at schools (hiring security guards, paying for metal detectors, etc.) to prevent mass shootings has cost the federal government at least $811 million since the Columbine High School massacre in 1999. That sum is rivaled by investments being made at the state and local level, with many school districts buying "bulletproof" backpacks for students, purchasing police officers' time to practice "active-shooter" drills, and testing out "active-shooter detection" systems that costs as much as $100,000.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   8/14/2018, 8:31 am

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
No one pays for my right to firearms.

Exactly (Well, ignoring the millions of dollars associated with the hundreds of thousands of Americans that are victims of gun violence each year, levels not seen in other countries.  But yes, no direct monetary cost.)

Yes, you probably should ignore those millions of dollars, inasmuch as my right to firearms is not what causes that money to be spent as the result of gun violence.



Artchel 60438 wrote:
Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
No one pays for my right to firearms.

Exactly (Well, ignoring the millions of dollars associated with the hundreds of thousands of Americans that are victims of gun violence each year, levels not seen in other countries.  But yes, no direct monetary cost.)


I beg to differ on the cost associated with gun violence as a result of the Trump Worshiping Gun Nut's right to carry a gun.

You may beg to differ all you wish, but that doesn't alter the fact that my right to carry a gun is in no way responsible for violence caused by others.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   8/14/2018, 9:13 am

Trump Worshiping Gun Nut wrote:

Artie Wins Again wrote:
Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
No one pays for my right to firearms.

Exactly (Well, ignoring the millions of dollars associated with the hundreds of thousands of Americans that are victims of gun violence each year, levels not seen in other countries.  But yes, no direct monetary cost.)


I beg to differ on the cost associated with gun violence as a result of the Trump Worshiping Gun Nut's right to carry a gun.

You may beg to differ all you wish, but that doesn't alter the fact that my right to carry a gun is in no way responsible for violence caused by others.
No,but if guns were banned the costs associated with them would go down enormously. Not that someone who advocates for the murder of school children like you have would actually care. Sleep
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   8/14/2018, 11:04 am

Artie60438 wrote:
Trump Worshiping Gun Nut wrote:

Artie Wins Again wrote:
Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
No one pays for my right to firearms.

Exactly (Well, ignoring the millions of dollars associated with the hundreds of thousands of Americans that are victims of gun violence each year, levels not seen in other countries.  But yes, no direct monetary cost.)


I beg to differ on the cost associated with gun violence as a result of the Trump Worshiping Gun Nut's right to carry a gun.

You may beg to differ all you wish, but that doesn't alter the fact that my right to carry a gun is in no way responsible for violence caused by others.
No,but if guns were banned the costs associated with them would go down enormously. Not that someone who advocates for the murder of school children like you have would actually care. Sleep

You seem to have this all wrong, Rachel. Whereas I have never advocated for the murder of schoolchildren, you have quite clearly advocated for the murder of police officers. (See below.)
You might want to put down your Jazz Jennings doll and concentrate on getting your story straight.



happy jack wrote:
Perhaps Artie will comment on this after the effect of his/her celebratory champagne wears off.



http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/12/us/ferguson-protests/index.html

State, county police take over Ferguson protest security after shooting

By Greg Botelho, CNN

Updated 4:59 PM ET, Thu March 12, 2015

(CNN)With tensions running high after the shooting of two officers in Ferguson, Missouri, state and county police are once again taking over protest security in the St. Louis suburb.
St. Louis County Police and the Missouri State Highway Patrol will "assume command of the security detail regarding protests" at 6 p.m. (7 p.m. ET), St. Louis County Police said in a statement.
Ferguson Police will remain responsible for "routine policing services" in the city, the statement said.
The takeover comes less than a day after two police officers standing guard outside Ferguson police headquarters were shot in what St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar called an "ambush," spurring a manhunt for those responsible for targeting the line of officers.
"We could have buried two police officers," Belmar told reporters. "... I feel very confident that whoever did this ... came there for whatever nefarious reason that it was."
The shots rang out shortly after midnight, at the end of a protest against the Ferguson Police Department. That department has been under fire since one of its officers, Darren Wilson, shot and killed black teen Michael Brown in August, and more recently since a scathing U.S. Department of Justice report came out documenting a pattern of racial discrimination.


………



Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Perhaps Artie will comment on this after the effect of his/her celebratory champagne wears off.
Some might say they brought this on themselves...Kinda like when you keep poking a dog and then you're surprised when it bites you.
Ferguson Police Routinely Violate Rights of Blacks, Justice Dept. Finds
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   8/30/2018, 9:51 am

U.S. is denying passports to Americans along the border, throwing their citizenship into question

Quote :
Juan is one of a growing number of people whose official birth records show they were born in the United States but who are now being denied passports — their citizenship suddenly thrown into question. The Trump administration is accusing hundreds, and possibly thousands, of Hispanics along the border of using fraudulent birth certificates since they were babies, and it is undertaking a widespread crackdown.

In a statement, the State Department said that it “has not changed policy or practice regarding the adjudication of passport applications,” adding that “the U.S.-Mexico border region happens to be an area of the country where there has been a significant incidence of citizenship fraud.”

But cases identified by The Washington Post and interviews with immigration attorneys suggest a dramatic shift in both passport issuance and immigration enforcement.

In some cases, passport applicants with official U.S. birth certificates are being jailed in immigration detention centers and entered into deportation proceedings. In others, they are stuck in Mexico, their passports suddenly revoked when they tried to reenter the United States. As the Trump administration attempts to reduce both legal and illegal immigration, the government’s treatment of passport applicants in South Texas shows how U.S. citizens are increasingly being swept up by immigration enforcement agencies.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/11/2018, 10:24 pm

happy jack wrote:


If I don't vote for the Republican candidates, then I would be forced to vote for the Democrat candidates, and I'll take corrupt over crazy, any day of the week.

Yeah. Well that's the kind of attitude that put a deeply dishonest psycho in the White House.  You may not have voted for him, but you sure haven't criticized him much... in fact, I could be wrong, but I don't think you've said anything negative about him at all.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/12/2018, 3:07 pm

Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one. That's what I'm most interested in understanding.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/12/2018, 7:44 pm

Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/13/2018, 8:04 am

Scorpion wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?
Sorry but the Trump Worshiping Gutless Coward has been too busy making a fool of himself on the 4 years of whining thread.
Good luck getting anything that resembles an honest answer to your legitimate questions.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/13/2018, 10:12 am

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?
Sorry but the Trump Worshiping Gutless Coward has been too busy making a fool of himself on the 4 years of whining thread.  
Good luck getting anything that resembles an honest answer to your legitimate questions.

Our questions are not about "Trump Worship."  IMHO, that's not a constructive approach to a discussion. I'm looking for honest discussion about Trump in this thread.
No offense, but your long running feud with Jack doesn't interest me, and certainly has no place in this thread. If either of you want to continue on that road, please confine it to the "whining" thread.

Thanks!
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/13/2018, 10:19 am

Scorpion wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?
Sorry but the Trump Worshiping Gutless Coward has been too busy making a fool of himself on the 4 years of whining thread.  
Good luck getting anything that resembles an honest answer to your legitimate questions.

Our questions are not about "Trump Worship."  IMHO, that's not a constructive approach to a discussion. I'm looking for honest discussion about Trump in this thread.
Hahaha...Like I said...Good luck with that.
Scorpion wrote:
No offense, but your long running feud with Jack doesn't interest me, and certainly has no place in this thread. If you want to continue on that road, please confine it to the "whining" thread.

Thanks!
No offense taken. Will do.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/13/2018, 10:20 am

Scorpion wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?

Yes, I do.
Trump, as an individual, is a boorish asshole.
But his Presidency has thus far served one very important purpose, in my view. The very idea that he is actually in the White House has caused those on the Left to show their true colors to the general public, and that is something they will never be able to take back. Their behavior is not any grand revelation to me, of course - I've long known what they were like. Whereas once they were the crazy uncle who everyone pretended didn't exist and who locked himself in his bedroom, they are now the crazy uncle who sneaks out of his bedroom on Thanksgiving, shits on the turkey, and causes everyone at the table to say,"Wow, I never knew he was that crazy." The service they are providing conservatives is invaluable, and I can only see it getting better and better as time goes on.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/13/2018, 11:05 am

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?

Yes, I do.
Trump, as an individual, is a boorish asshole.
But his Presidency has thus far served one very important purpose, in my view. The very idea that he is actually in the White House has caused those on the Left to show their true colors to the general public, and that is something they will never be able to take back. Their behavior is not any grand revelation to me, of course - I've long known what they were like.

Who, exactly, are they?   What are the "true colors" that you believe they're showing?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/13/2018, 4:17 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Nor has he even attempted to explain how a Democratic Presidency would still be worse than the current Republican one.  That's what I'm most interested in understanding.

Yep.  I  mean, WTF?   If we're not going to discuss the fucking issues, then what's the fucking point?

Got anything at all to say about this train wreck of a Presidency, Jack?

Yes, I do.
Trump, as an individual, is a boorish asshole.
But his Presidency has thus far served one very important purpose, in my view. The very idea that he is actually in the White House has caused those on the Left to show their true colors to the general public, and that is something they will never be able to take back. Their behavior is not any grand revelation to me, of course - I've long known what they were like.

Who are they?  What are the "true colors" that you believe they're showing?  

"They" are:

Antifa
Maxine Waters
The wearers of pussyhats
Kathy Griffin
The Democrats who embarrassed themselves during the Kavanagh hearings
Those who call for safe spaces
Michael Moore
Those who call for Trump's impeachment, but when asked, "On what grounds?", have no answer
Hillary Clinton
Those screaming 'Russia, Russia, Russia
Proprietors who throw customers out of their establishments for wearing a MAGA hat
Ocasio-Cortez
Those who demand that ICE be abolished
Those who claim that any and all people who voted for or who support Trump are complete, horrible racists


That's who "they" are, and those are just the ones off the top of my head.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/14/2018, 8:26 am

Whoops!
Almost forgot about 'Spartacus'.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/14/2018, 11:52 am

happy jack wrote:
Whoops!
Almost forgot about 'Spartacus'.

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm swamped today, and I'll get back to this thread...  but wouldn't the Spartacus thing be a part of what you call "The Democrats who embarrassed themselves during the Kavanagh hearings?"
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/14/2018, 12:24 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Whoops!
Almost forgot about 'Spartacus'.

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm swamped today, and I'll get back to this thread...  but wouldn't the Spartacus thing be a part of what you call "The Democrats who embarrassed themselves during the Kavanagh hearings?"

Apologies from Captain Redundant.

Smile
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/14/2018, 3:22 pm

Scorpion wrote:
What are the "true colors" that you believe they're showing?

Very curious to read that answer, as well as why it's so important.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/14/2018, 4:21 pm

happy jack wrote:
Trump, as an individual, is a boorish asshole.

But any actual thoughts on the current policies and effects of this Presidency? Attacking a who's who list of Fox News/National Review boogeymen is a lazy (and expected) dodge of obvious, relevant, and far more impactful issues (unless you can explain how that's not the case).

Why you hate "The Left" will be a great discussion, but I just don't want it to interfere with what Scorpion originally asked, which is why you don't (or do?) hate the current state of the GOP and the Presidency.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   9/15/2018, 12:15 pm

Heretic wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
What are the "true colors" that you believe they're showing?

Very curious to read that answer, as well as why it's so important.

Yep. I'm curious too....


Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Trump, as an individual, is a boorish asshole.

But any actual thoughts on the current policies and effects of this Presidency? Attacking a who's who list of Fox News/National Review boogeymen is a lazy (and expected) dodge of obvious, relevant, and far more impactful issues (unless you can explain how that's not the case).

Why you hate "The Left" will be a great discussion, but I just don't want it to interfere with what Scorpion originally asked, which is why you don't (or do?) hate the current state of the GOP and the Presidency.


Yeah... Jack - Your answer is only the response to "Who are they?"  What about the "true colors" part? And how about the current state of the GOP and the Presidency itself?

While we wait for the answers, I'll play... Let's discuss the first entry on your list ....

Antifa

For brevity, let's just go to Wikipedia on this... Here's a sample of what academia says
about them...


Quote :
Antifa movements have provoked varying reactions within the academic community; Noam Chomsky described them as "a major gift to the right",[78] while historian Mark Bray said, "Given the historical and current threat that white supremacist and fascist groups pose, it's clear to me that organized, collective self-defense is not only a legitimate response, but lamentably an all-too-necessary response to this threat on too many occasions."[79] Anti-fascist author and organizer, Alexander Reid Ross said that antifa groups represented, "one of the best models for channeling the popular reflexes and spontaneous movements towards confronting fascism in organized and focused ways."

So tell me... Do you deny that there is has been an increase in white supremacist activity?  Remember Charlottesville?  Nevertheless, I agree with Chomsky on this one... for now.

But you know what?  I detest Nazis. Somebody has to fight back against the rise of the White Supremacists, don't you think?  

Quote :
Antifa" is an umbrella term for a loose collection of groups, networks and individuals.[11] Since it is composed of autonomous groups, and thus has no formal organization or membership,[16][33] it is impossible to know how many groups are active. Antifa groups either form loose support networks, such as NYC Antifa, or operate independently.[34] Activists typically organize protests via social media and through websites and email lists.[16][33] Some activists have built peer-to-peer networks, or use encrypted-texting services like Signal.[35] According to Salon, it is an organizing strategy, not a group of people.[36] While its numbers cannot be estimated accurately, the movement has grown since the 2016 presidential election and approximately 200 groups currently exist in the US, of varying sizes and levels of engagement


OK. So it appears that the Antifa movement has grown since Trump won.  So has White Supremacist activity.  How is this a good thing?  Didn't you imply that this was some kind of "benefit"...?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   Yesterday at 10:29 pm

Scorpion wrote:
 

Yeah... Jack - Your answer is only the response to "Who are they?"  What about the "true colors" part?

If you read anything other than ThinkProgress, the "they" and the "true colors" parts shouldn't really require further explanation. My list is just a small, off-the-cuff roster of those who need to be fitted for a strait-jacket (except for maybe Hillary, who should just go away. Also, Aunt Esther's and Michael Moore's "true colors" have pretty much always been on display).


Antifa
Maxine Waters
The wearers of pussyhats
Kathy Griffin
The Democrats who embarrassed themselves during the Kavanagh hearings
Those who call for safe spaces
Michael Moore
Those who call for Trump's impeachment, but when asked, "On what grounds?", have no answer
Hillary Clinton
Those screaming 'Russia, Russia, Russia
Proprietors who throw customers out of their establishments for wearing a MAGA hat
Ocasio-Cortez
Those who demand that ICE be abolished
Those who claim that any and all people who voted for or who support Trump are complete, horrible racists


Scorpion wrote:
 

And how about the current state of the GOP and the Presidency itself

Kind of a broad question; anything specific you have in mind?
At any rate, the nuts and bolts of politics bore me, in general. If you’ve noticed, the bulk of my posting runs along the lines of social issues and attitudes, not politics.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The TIC   Yesterday at 11:09 pm

happy jack wrote:

Scorpion wrote:
 

And how about the current state of the GOP and the Presidency itself

Kind of a broad question; anything specific you have in mind?
At any rate, the nuts and bolts of politics bore me, in general. If you’ve noticed, the bulk of my posting runs along the lines of social issues and attitudes, not politics.

So our foreign policy bores you?  How about our economy?  Do you care about that?  It's all politics, Jack. Do you really think that "social issues and attitudes" are somehow separate from politics?  

And I'd really appreciate some kind of response to the questions in the Antifa portion of my post, if that's not too much of a burden.
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