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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 1:10 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:

Or could it be that you are revealing what you believe to be the optimal case - that gays should not have merely equal rights, but that they should have special rights?
Could it be that you are giving away the true game plan, Scorpion?

Jeez.  Aren't you being a bit paranoid?  

That depends.
Do you believe that our hypothetical Mississippian has the same right to his choice of cake decorations as does our hypothetical gay couple?

I reject your comparison altogether.  That's part of a straw man argument, and if you don't recognize it, that's not my problem.  None of the bakers that we discussed objected to the "decorations" on the wedding cake as the reason that they refused service to a same sex couple. The bakers refused to make a wedding cake for the same sex couple because of the fact that they were a same sex couple.

Here's what I said...

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

You cannot have sympathy to the objections of only one of those bakers. Either the reasoning of both bakers for refusing to provide the service is legitimate, or the reasoning of neither of the bakers for refusing to provide service is legitimate. You can’t separate the two.

Sure I can.  The same sex couple is part of a "protected class" and cannot be legally be refused service.  They have to be treated the same way as everyone else.  This means that a baker cannot deny them a wedding cake because of the fact that they are a same sex couple.  Period.

There's nothing in that reply that hints at "special rights."  It's simply illegal to refuse to serve a same sex couple because of their sexual orientation.  They are protected under the "equal protection" clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.  You may not like it, but equal rights means that they have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 1:23 pm

Scorpion wrote:
   You may not like it, but equal rights means that they have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.



You may not like it, but equal rights means that a Mississippian who would like to have a Confederate flag emblazoned on his cake has the same rights as a gay couple.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 1:41 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
   You may not like it, but equal rights means that they have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.

You may not like it, but equal rights means that a Mississippian who would like to have a Confederate flag emblazoned on his cake has the same rights as a gay couple.

Personally I have no problem with a southerner requesting a rebel flag on a cake, but that has nothing at all to do with the issue of a baker refusing service to a same sex couple due to their sexual orientation.  

Like I said - straw man.



Last edited by Scorpion on 7/15/2015, 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 1:59 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
   You may not like it, but equal rights means that they have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.

You may not like it, but equal rights means that a Mississippian who would like to have a Confederate flag emblazoned on his cake has the same rights as a gay couple.

Personally I have no problem with a southerner requesting a rebel flag on a cake, but that has nothing at all to do with the issue of a baker refusing service to a same sex couple.  Like I said - straw man.



There is no straw man involved whatsoever, because we are not discussing a refusal of service to a particular victim group – we are discussing the refusal to make a particular product for anyone.
So, do you think that a Mississippian who would like to have a Confederate flag emblazoned on his cake has the same rights as a gay couple who want two grooms on theirs?
And based on the below, your arguments might make a little more sense if you could decide exactly what you are arguing for or against.




Scorpion wrote:
   
Yeah. Well I can't speak to Edge's "criteria," but the plain fact of the matter is  the Confederate Flag represents treason against the United States. It certainly doesn't matter if the baker in question is black or not.  Any baker can refuse such a request.


Last edited by happy jack on 7/15/2015, 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:00 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
   You may not like it, but equal rights means that they have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.


You may not like it, but equal rights means that a Mississippian who would like to have a Confederate flag emblazoned on his cake has the same rights as a gay couple.

Yes he does have the same rights and so does baker have the right to refuse to make a cake with a Confederate flag on it to BOTH THE GAY COUPLE AND YOUR MISSISSIPPIAN friend BECAUSE the refusal is not based on sexual orientation. It's based on his objection to the fucking racist flag. And that is legal whether you like it or not, jack.

This is the part you can't wrap your head around.
BOTH are being treated equally.


It is the same as if a landlord refused to rent an apartment to a gay couple with a dog. Everybody with a dog is refused....that's the equal rights part. No dog, he has to rent the apartment to both straight and gay people. EQUAL RIGHTS, jack.

The baker in my example is required to make the wedding for the two girls BECAUSE he makes THE SAME fucking cake for straight couples.
Again, that's the equal rights part you ignore.
Like Scorpian said:They are protected under the "equal protection" clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

You're too fucking stupid to comprehend that fact.


Last edited by edge540 on 7/15/2015, 2:12 pm; edited 3 times in total
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:09 pm

edge540 wrote:
 
Yes he does and so does baker have the right to refuse to make a cake with a Confederate flag on it to BOTH THE GAY COUPLE AND YOUR MISSISSIPPIAN friend BECAUSE the refusal is not based sexual orientation. It's based on his objection to the fucking racist flag.



So once again, we come full circle.
You believe that the government should be able to dictate to any given person what he or she may or may not be allowed to find personally objectionable.
Nice country you choose to live in, Comrade.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:11 pm

edge540 wrote:
   

You're too fucking stupid to comprehend that fact.



How's that scotch?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:12 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
   You may not like it, but equal rights means that they have the same rights as a heterosexual couple.

You may not like it, but equal rights means that a Mississippian who would like to have a Confederate flag emblazoned on his cake has the same rights as a gay couple.

Personally I have no problem with a southerner requesting a rebel flag on a cake, but that has nothing at all to do with the issue of a baker refusing service to a same sex couple.  Like I said - straw man.

And based on the below, your arguments might make a little more sense if you could decide exactly what you are arguing for or against.

Scorpion wrote:
   
Yeah. Well I can't speak to Edge's "criteria," but the plain fact of the matter is  the Confederate Flag represents treason against the United States. It certainly doesn't matter if the baker in question is black or not.  Any baker can refuse such a request.

Nothing inconsistent here.  I'm just personally not against a person getting a confederate flag cake, if that's what they want to do.  But the baker does not have to honor such a request.  

BTW- If the southerner in question is gay, the baker can certainly refuse to bake a confederate flag cake for him or her, as long as the rejection isn't because of the customer's sexual orientation.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:15 pm

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
   

You're too fucking stupid to comprehend that fact.



How's that scotch?

Truth hurts doesn't it.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:17 pm

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
 
Yes he does and so does baker have the right to refuse to make a cake with a Confederate flag on it to BOTH THE GAY COUPLE AND YOUR MISSISSIPPIAN friend BECAUSE the refusal is not based sexual orientation. It's based on his objection to the fucking racist flag.



So once again, we come full circle.
You believe that the government should be able to dictate to any given person what he or she may or may not be allowed to find personally objectionable.
Nice country you choose to live in, Comrade.

Bullshit, the big bad government you hate makes sure everybody is treated the same, and people like you can't stand it.
That's the bottom line.


Last edited by edge540 on 7/15/2015, 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:21 pm

Scorpion wrote:
   I'm just personally not against a person getting a confederate flag cake, if that's what they want to do.  But the baker does not have to honor such a request.  




As long as he is not denying service to anyone, the baker should be able to refuse to honor any and all requests for a particular product he finds to be objectionable, as long as he is refusing to serve that product to any and all customers.
Or, if you had it your way, the baker could be forced through government coercion to serve a particular product, and that would include the Confederate flag cake, wouldn't it?
Really simple.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:23 pm

edge540 wrote:
 

Bullshit, the government makes sure everybody is treated the same, and people like you can't stand it.
That's the bottom line.



Then why, if that is true, can't the Mississippian get the cake he wants?
Is he somehow less equal than gays?
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:28 pm

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
 

Bullshit, the government makes sure everybody is treated the same, and people like you can't stand it.
That's the bottom line.



Then why, if that is true, can't the Mississippian get the cake he wants?
Is he somehow less equal than gays?

He can get the cake he wants if he finds a baker who is willing to make it, just like people with dogs will find an apartment building that lets in dogs. Simple as that. The government does not ban bakers who makes cakes with confederate flags on them and it can not force a baker to make them.
The government can't make all landlords accept dogs, however if the landlord accepts straight people with dogs, the same applies to a gay person. Equal Rights, jack.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:37 pm

edge540 wrote:
   
He can get the cake he wants if he finds a baker who is willing to make it, just like people with dogs will find an apartment building that lets in dogs. Simple as that.



Then couldn't the gay couples who raised such a stink about this have just done the same thing - looked elsewhere and found someone who was willing to decorate the cake the way they wanted it done?
I thought you were all about equal rights.
Or do gays have more important and more powerful rights than non-gays, so that they can use the government to coerce the baker to do their bidding, while the non-gay is simply shit out of luck?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 2:42 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
   I'm just personally not against a person getting a confederate flag cake, if that's what they want to do.  But the baker does not have to honor such a request.  


As long as he is not denying service to anyone, the baker should be able to refuse to honor any and all requests for a particular product he finds to be objectionable, as long as he is refusing to serve that product to any and all customers.

We've been over this before... If what you're saying is that a baker can decide to not sell any wedding cakes to anyone, then that's correct. One of the bakers mentioned earlier threatened to do just that.

I've also said that circular arguments bore me, so when you have anything new to say, let me know.

happy jack wrote:

Or, if you had it your way, the baker could be forced through government coercion to serve a particular product, and that would include the Confederate flag cake, wouldn't it?

I never said, or implied, anything that even remotely resembles those sentiments.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 4:04 pm

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
   
He can get the cake he wants if he finds a baker who is willing to make it, just like people with dogs will find an apartment building that lets in dogs. Simple as that.



Then couldn't the gay couples who raised such a stink about this have just done the same thing - looked elsewhere and found someone who was willing to decorate the cake the way they wanted it done?
I thought you were all about equal rights.
Or do gays have more important and more powerful rights than non-gays, so that they can use the government to coerce the baker to do their bidding, while the non-gay is simply shit out of luck?

I was not talking about decorating the cake in my example. The girls want a cake JUST LIKE THE straight CAKE COUPLE BEFORE THEM ordered-a fucking wedding cake, Jack The Obtuse.
You would have a point if your redneck friend walked into bakery and the redneck in front of him ordered a cake with the flag on it.
If the baker refused the second redneck in making the SAME FUCKING CAKE, then the second redneck would have a case. Equal rights, Mr Obtuse.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 4:10 pm

Scorpion wrote:
  when you have anything new to say, let me know.  

happy jack wrote:

Or, if you had it your way, the baker could be forced through government coercion to serve a particular product, and that would include the Confederate flag cake, wouldn't it?

I never said, or implied, anything that even remotely resembles those  sentiments.    



Of course you did. You are in favor of government coercion in the matter of forcing a baker to sell a cake with two grooms on top. If you are not in favor of that, then I'm not sure what we've been arguing about for five pages.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 4:24 pm

edge540 wrote:
   
You would have a point if your redneck friend walked into bakery and the redneck in front of him ordered a cake with the flag on it.
If the baker refused the second redneck in making the SAME FUCKING CAKE, then the second redneck would have a case. Equal rights, Mr Obtuse.



I thought you believed that no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake.
After all, you said:




edge540 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Tell me, edge - if a Southern gay couple asked a black baker to bake them a wedding cake emblazoned with the Confederate flag, and he refused, do you think he should face legal and/or civil sanctions for his refusal?
Day dreaming again?
No I don't get it, why would anybody face legal and/or civil sanctions for refusing to make something that represents, hatred, treason and racisim?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 4:28 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
  when you have anything new to say, let me know.  

happy jack wrote:

Or, if you had it your way, the baker could be forced through government coercion to serve a particular product, and that would include the Confederate flag cake, wouldn't it?

I never said, or implied, anything that even remotely resembles those  sentiments.    



Of course you did. You are in favor of government coercion in the matter of forcing a baker to sell a cake with two grooms on top. If you are not in favor of that, then I'm not sure what we've been arguing about for five pages.

You're the one obsessed with the cake figurines.  All that I've said is that a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone without regard to sexual orientation.  That doesn't make me in favor of "government coercion" of any kind. (Characterizing what I've said as "government coercion" is yet another form of a straw man argument, by the way... you really need to read about straw man arguments and at least try to stop using them.)
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 4:36 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
  when you have anything new to say, let me know.  

happy jack wrote:

Or, if you had it your way, the baker could be forced through government coercion to serve a particular product, and that would include the Confederate flag cake, wouldn't it?

I never said, or implied, anything that even remotely resembles those  sentiments.    



Of course you did. You are in favor of government coercion in the matter of forcing a baker to sell a cake with two grooms on top. If you are not in favor of that, then I'm not sure what we've been arguing about for five pages.

You're the one obsessed with the cake figurines.  All that I've said is that a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone without regard to sexual orientation.  That doesn't make me in favor of "government coercion" of any kind. (Characterizing what I've said as "government coercion" is yet another form of a straw man argument, by the way... you really need to read about straw man arguments and at least try to stop using them.)



“….a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone ….”


Has to?
That certainly sounds like coercion to me.
And who would be the agency providing this coercion?
Why, that would be the government, wouldn't it?
Straw man, my ass.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 4:54 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
  when you have anything new to say, let me know.  

happy jack wrote:

Or, if you had it your way, the baker could be forced through government coercion to serve a particular product, and that would include the Confederate flag cake, wouldn't it?

I never said, or implied, anything that even remotely resembles those  sentiments.    



Of course you did. You are in favor of government coercion in the matter of forcing a baker to sell a cake with two grooms on top. If you are not in favor of that, then I'm not sure what we've been arguing about for five pages.

You're the one obsessed with the cake figurines.  All that I've said is that a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone without regard to sexual orientation.  That doesn't make me in favor of "government coercion" of any kind. (Characterizing what I've said as "government coercion" is yet another form of a straw man argument, by the way... you really need to read about straw man arguments and at least try to stop using them.)



“….a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone ….”


Has to?
That certainly sounds like coercion to me.
And who would be the agency providing this coercion?
Why, that would be the government, wouldn't it?
Straw man, my ass.

Why did you cut up my sentence?   What I said was...

Scorpion wrote:
All that I've said is that a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone without regard to sexual orientation.

The underlined words are important to the meaning of this sentence.

Let me ask you a couple of questions, if you don't mind.  Should bakers, or anyone else, be able to discriminate against same sex couples for any reason? How about blacks?  Should bakers, or anyone else, be able to discriminate against blacks for any reason?
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/15/2015, 8:41 pm

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
   
You would have a point if your redneck friend walked into bakery and the redneck in front of him ordered a cake with the flag on it.
If the baker refused the second redneck in making the SAME FUCKING CAKE, then the second redneck would have a case. Equal rights, Mr Obtuse.


I thought you believed that no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake.

You thought wrong, I never said no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake...another straw man.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/16/2015, 4:20 am

Scorpion wrote:
 
Why did you cut up my sentence?   What I said was...

Scorpion wrote:
All that I've said is that a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone without regard to sexual orientation.

The underlined words are important to the meaning of this sentence.




I didn’t cut up your sentence for any nefarious reason. Since we had been discussing coercion, I thought that the operative words in your sentence were “has to”. So let’s try it again:


Scorpion wrote:
All that I've said is that a baker who makes wedding cakes has to make them for everyone without regard to sexual orientation.


Has to?
That certainly sounds like coercion to me.
And who would be the agency providing this coercion?
Why, that would be the government, wouldn't it?
Straw man, my ass.







Scorpion wrote:
 
Let me ask you a couple of questions, if you don't mind.  Should bakers, or anyone else, be able to discriminate against same sex couples for any reason? How about blacks?  Should bakers, or anyone else, be able to discriminate against blacks for any reason?



No, and no.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/16/2015, 4:23 am

edge540 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
   
You would have a point if your redneck friend walked into bakery and the redneck in front of him ordered a cake with the flag on it.
If the baker refused the second redneck in making the SAME FUCKING CAKE, then the second redneck would have a case. Equal rights, Mr Obtuse.


I thought you believed that no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake.

You thought wrong, I never said no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake...another straw man.



Really?
Then what did you mean by this?




edge540 wrote:
   
The baker can simply say fuck you, I don't make wedding cakes emblazoned with the Confederate flags, now get the fuck out of my bakery.



Straw man, my ass.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Yes You're A...   7/16/2015, 8:52 am

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
   
You would have a point if your redneck friend walked into bakery and the redneck in front of him ordered a cake with the flag on it.
If the baker refused the second redneck in making the SAME FUCKING CAKE, then the second redneck would have a case. Equal rights, Mr Obtuse.


I thought you believed that no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake.

You thought wrong, I never said no one should be able to get the Confederate flag cake...another straw man.



Really?
Then what did you mean by this?




edge540 wrote:
   
The baker can simply say fuck you, I don't make wedding cakes emblazoned with the Confederate flags, now get the fuck out of my bakery.



Straw man, my ass.

That means a baker does not have to make a wedding cake emblazoned with the Confederate flag on it.
I meant to say:
I never said no one should *NOT* be able to get the Confederate flag cake.

I left out the word "not," my bad.

happy jack wrote:


Scorpion wrote:
 
Let me ask you a couple of questions, if you don't mind.  Should bakers, or anyone else, be able to discriminate against same sex couples for any reason? How about blacks?  Should bakers, or anyone else, be able to discriminate against blacks for any reason?

No, and no.

Great, you agree that the baker should not be able to discriminate against the two girls in my example below: cheers

Two couples walk into a bakery. First couple, a boy and a girl tell the baker they want a wedding cake.
Baker says no problem and asks them the details of the cake and they're done.
The second couple, two girls, tell the baker they want a cake just like the first couple. Baker asks them is this for you two, they say yes it is.
Baker says, sorry I don't bake wedding cakes for same same sex couples.

The end, I'm done, see ya.  
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