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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/24/2018, 4:17 pm

happy jack wrote:
I guess that makes me crazy.

It does.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/24/2018, 4:26 pm

Another:

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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/24/2018, 4:33 pm

So again, why do you always give Republican policies as these, which aren't at all based on the related science, a pass?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/24/2018, 4:34 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
I guess that makes me crazy.

It does.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.
So I guess that makes me crazy, and you merely deluded.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/24/2018, 7:16 pm

happy jack wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Why?  Why are you so incapable of acknowledging the science on this or any of the issues we've discussed?  What reason do you have to doubt it? Why am I "deluded" for citing it?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/25/2018, 4:13 am

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Why?  Why are you so incapable of acknowledging the science on this or any of the issues we've discussed?  What reason do you have to doubt it?  Why am I "deluded" for citing it?

If you are denying that someone with a penis is a male and that someone with a vagina is a female, you may call it "science", if such re-definition makes you feel better. I call it delusion.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/25/2018, 8:50 am

happy jack wrote:
If you are denying that someone with a penis is a male and that someone with a vagina is a female...

The reality is simply not binary, happy.

From my first article:

Quote :
The Trump administration seems to think you can separate people’s genitalia into two binary categories: male and female. This is not a scientific reality. Thousands of people in the United States have genitalia that do not fall into these categories. We previously referred to these people as having “disorders of sexual development.” More recently, as we recognized that there is no reason to pathologize these people, the term became “differences of sex development1." Examples include people who have a vagina along with testicles or people with both a uterus and male-appearing external genitalia. Somewhere between one in 1,500 and one in 4,500 infants are born with non-binary external genitalia. This means there are as many as 200,000 such people in the United States.

The Trump administration says they will use genetics to determine a person’s gender when the anatomy is not clear. They are likely under the wrong impression that all people have XY or XX chromosomes or that people’s chromosomes invariably define their gender. What will they do with the people who have chromosomal mosaicism, a condition in which some of their cells have XY chromosomes and others have XX chromosomes? People with another condition called complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have XY chromosomes but lack receptors that respond to testosterone. They have breasts and vaginas and almost always identify as women. Does the administration plan on telling them that they are actually, in fact, men?

And from the second:

Quote :
If we go back to that histogram plot, we can keep breaking down your biological sex into smaller and smaller differences in brain areas, hormone levels, signalling differences, genetic variances. . . .

The thing to remember is that this isn't "new." We're not 'inventing sexes' here. Sex has ALWAYS been this curve. We were just using REALLY BIG bins. And now we're realizing that that's not representative of biology, it's inhibiting understanding of medicine and biology

So...

Quote :
de·lu·sion
/dəˈlo͞oZHən/

noun

an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.

The only delusional one here is you, happy.  You're the one trying to dismiss decades of research and entire fields of psychology, biology, neurobiology, and genetics with a comical "Harumpf!!" without even attempting to offer a real reason why.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/25/2018, 3:53 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
If you are denying that someone with a penis is a male and that someone with a vagina is a female...

Examples include people who have a vagina along with testicles or people with both a uterus and male-appearing external genitalia. Somewhere between one in 1,500 and one in 4,500 infants are born with non-binary external genitalia. This means there are as many as 200,000 such people in the United States.


There will always be sexual mutations, aberrations, irregularities (or whatever terminology you want to use to describe such things) among humans, but I don't think that that is what we are actually talking about here, is it?
Someone with a penis, whether or not he likes to play with dolls, is a man. And someone with a vagina, whether or not she likes to wear motorcycle boots and call herself 'Spike', is a woman. That is indisputable, no matter how hard you may try to re-define the terms 'man' and 'woman'. You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/26/2018, 2:37 pm

happy jack wrote:
There will always be sexual mutations, aberrations, irregularities (or whatever terminology you want to use to describe such things) among humans...

The scientific term was used extensively in my second article.  It was kind of the whole point of the article.  I suggest you read it.  I'm not posting those things for me, ya know.

happy jack wrote:
...but I don't think that that is what we are actually talking about here, is it?

Yes, we are talking about them. That's the whole point: they exist.

Now you and the President can claim sex is binary all you want, but the whole point of both articles is that sex is and always has been a spectrum, that you're both completely and utterly wrong in your grade school, biblical understanding of it, and that any policy based on such a deliberately reductive understanding of sex and gender identity is absurd, ineffective, and most importantly, completely unnecessary.  

I have yet to hear from any convenservative why our bathrooms need to be so highly regulated, given that the individuals in question have always existed.

happy jack wrote:
You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day.

Do you have any evidence that this is what's happening?  Because without it, this is just useless fear mongering.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/26/2018, 3:36 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
There will always be sexual mutations, aberrations, irregularities (or whatever terminology you want to use to describe such things) among humans...

happy jack wrote:
...but I don't think that that is what we are actually talking about here, is it?

Yes, we are talking about them. That's the whole point: they exist.

You may have been talking about them, but I certainly wasn't.



Heretic wrote:
…. sex is and always has been a spectrum ….

I don't know how many times I have heard the claim made that, 'Gender and sex are two entirely different things - there are only two sexes, but there are any number of genders.'
To wit:

Heretic wrote:
Is anyone surprised that the bigots at the FPIW have no understanding of the biological basis of sex and gender identity, and the differences between the two?  

Now, sex itself is apparently a "spectrum".
I guess when your argument stops working, you can always change your terminology.




Heretic wrote:
   
I have yet to hear from any convenservative why our bathrooms need to be so highly regulated, given that the individuals in question have always existed.

I don't think that our bathrooms need an inordinate amount of regulation, either.
But I also don't think that our bathrooms need someone standing in the doorway, waving in people and telling them that they are welcome in whatever bathroom they choose, based solely upon what they feel their gender to be on that particular day.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/26/2018, 10:42 pm

happy jack wrote:
You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day.

I do want to talk about the "class of victims" thing, but first...

What's with this "any given day" bullshit?  Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?  Seriously?
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/27/2018, 1:43 am

happy jack wrote:
You may have been talking about them, but I certainly wasn't.

You are, though, whether you want to acknowledge them or not, especially in terms of these stupid bathroom bills:

You wrote:
If you have a dick, you use the mens' washroom or locker room.
If you don't have a dick, you use the womens' washroom or locker room.
It really is as simple as that.

It just isn't that simple, as my first article explains, no matter how much you and Trump want to insist otherwise. Ignoring them as you're trying to do won't make your argument true, either.

happy jack wrote:
I guess when your argument stops working, you can always change your terminology.

Or you update it to include all available and relevant factors.  That's how science works.  It's the reason you're making these inane arguments on a computer instead of chiseling them into rock in a cave somewhere.

Yes, sex has always been a spectrum.  I've pointed this out numerous times over the years though not in such context or clear terms. I know I've used pseudo-hermaphroditism and hermaphroditism in arguments with tiger and other bigots in their biblical freakouts over homosexuality and same sex marriage.  Clearly you didn't understand the significance. In those discussions I was citing them as a group forbidden from having any physical relationship that wouldn't condemn them to eternal torment and hellfire.  Here, it's a group apparently unable to use a public bathroom to the satisfaction of conservatives.  "Just marry/fuck the opposite sex" and "just pick the bathroom that matches your gonads" posit a world where sex is binary.

happy jack wrote:
I don't think that our bathrooms need an inordinate amount of regulation, either.
 
Inordinate?  So is current legislation enough or is more needed, like Trump suggests?  Because...

happy jack wrote:
But I also don't think that our bathrooms need someone standing in the doorway, waving in people...

...the only group advocating for bathroom police are conservatives.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/27/2018, 4:21 am

Scorpion wrote:
Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?

Are you seriously saying that an individual should not have that option?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/27/2018, 12:25 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?

Are you seriously saying that an individual should not have that option?

Could you please answer my question before we go off on a tangent?  

Here it is again...

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day.

I do want to talk about the "class of victims" thing, but first...

What's with this "any given day" bullshit?  Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?  Seriously?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   10/28/2018, 4:21 am

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?

Are you seriously saying that an individual should not have that option?

Could you please answer my question before we go off on a tangent?  

Here it is again...

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day.

I do want to talk about the "class of victims" thing, but first...
What's with this "any given day" bullshit?  Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?  Seriously?

No, I was being facetious.
But apparently, at some point, a certain number of individuals with penises do wake up and decide to call themselves women, and a certain number of individuals with vaginas do wake up and decide to call themselves men.
If that wasn't occurring, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/2/2018, 7:56 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day.

I do want to talk about the "class of victims" thing, but first...
What's with this "any given day" bullshit?  Are you seriously saying that an individual who is transgender wakes up every day and then chooses which sex that they feel like being that day?  Seriously?

happy jack wrote:
No, I was being facetious.

OK. So then your entire statement that "You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day" is a facetious statement as well?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/2/2018, 10:29 pm

Scorpion wrote:
 OK. So then your entire statement that "You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day" is a facetious statement as well?

No, it's not. To clarify: you can't create an entire class of victims merely because they themselves claim that they are victims.
If you could, where would it end?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/2/2018, 10:53 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
 OK. So then your entire statement that "You can't create an entire class of victims based merely upon how they might feel about their sexuality on any given day" is a facetious statement as well?

No, it's not. To clarify: you can't create an entire class of victims merely because they themselves claim that they are victims.
If you could, where would it end?

I don't know what you mean by "victims." Who claims that they are "victims?" Who is trying to "create an entire class of victims?"
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/3/2018, 9:56 am

Scorpion wrote:
   
I don't know what you mean by "victims."  Who claims that they are "victims?"  

Individuals with penises who demand to use facilities heretofore reserved for those with vaginas.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/3/2018, 1:00 pm

Yeah. Well I guess I forgot what the title of the thread is...  someone who is transgender has far bigger issues to deal with than which bathroom to use.  However, there is no doubt that discrimination against transgender individuals is unacceptable in any context.  Because, again, a transgender individual didn't choose to be transgender.  

I really have no interest in focusing solely on the topic of this thread.  It might be worthy of discussion if you focused on the actual issue, rather than focusing on sex offenders who are not transgender at all.

Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to better reflect what you're actually opposed to rather than constantly attacking transgender folks who aren't a threat to anyone.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/4/2018, 10:44 am

Scorpion wrote:

I really have no interest in focusing solely on the topic of this thread.  It might be worthy of discussion if you focused on the actual issue, rather than focusing on sex offenders who are not transgender at all.

If you had been paying attention, you would have realized that my main concern with legislation allowing those with penises to use women's facilities is not the fact that transgendered individuals would harm anyone, but rather that such laws could be exploited by non-transgendered predators.


Scorpion wrote:

Perhaps you should change the title of the thread to better reflect what you're actually opposed to rather than constantly attacking transgender folks who aren't a threat to anyone.

Where have I been "constantly attacking" anyone?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/4/2018, 6:42 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

I really have no interest in focusing solely on the topic of this thread.  It might be worthy of discussion if you focused on the actual issue, rather than focusing on sex offenders who are not transgender at all.

If you had been paying attention, you would have realized that my main concern with legislation allowing those with penises to use women's facilities is not the fact that transgendered individuals would harm anyone, but rather that such laws could be exploited by non-transgendered predators.

So what about transgender people?   They should be thrown under the bus because exercising their rights might enable predators?  Is that what you're saying?

Do you actually give a damn about transgender folks at all?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/4/2018, 7:39 pm

Scorpion wrote:
 So what about transgender people?   They should be thrown under the bus because exercising their rights might enable predators?  Is that what you're saying?

I don't see how they are being "thrown under the bus". A non-transgendered individual with a penis has the right to use the men's bathroom, and a transgendered individual with a penis has the right to use the men's bathroom. Seems like the epitome of equal rights to me.
Don't you believe in equal rights?
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/5/2018, 12:11 am

happy jack wrote:
. . . my main concern with legislation allowing those with penises to use women's facilities is not the fact that transgendered individuals would harm anyone, but rather that such laws could be exploited by non-transgendered predators.

It's worth mentioning, again, that we know empirically that such mythical bathroom-invading, crossdressing rapists don't exploit such laws.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Transgender bathroom use   11/5/2018, 10:03 am

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
. . . my main concern with legislation allowing those with penises to use women's facilities is not the fact that transgendered individuals would harm anyone, but rather that such laws could be exploited by non-transgendered predators.

It's worth mentioning, again, that we know empirically that such mythical bathroom-invading, crossdressing rapists don't exploit such laws.

Thanks for clearing all that up.
So, you Google 'GIPANDO laws', cite the first study that pops up, and pretend that you even know what this means:


Average annual crime rate in incidents per 100,000 people are in the parentheses; 90% confidence intervals are in the brackets; χ 2/2 - 1.42; ;p=0.49;
Fisher's exact = 0.658. difference-in-difference = 0.41, bootstrapped S.E. = 1.05, p = 0.699
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