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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/8/2012, 9:55 pm

Scorpion wrote:

But if I was as anti-choice as Jack is, there's no way in hell that I would invest in a company like Stericycle. I see what he's saying about the utility company and all of that, but IMHO, Stericycle plays a far more integral part in the process. Others in the "Pro-Life" movement seem to see the distinction, but apparently Jack doesn't.
Yeah,That's why I used the analogy of being staunch Anti-Death Penalty while at the same time investing in a company that supplies the chemicals for the executions. He didn't see the contradiction in that either.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/8/2012, 11:59 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

But if I was as anti-choice as Jack is, there's no way in hell that I would invest in a company like Stericycle. I see what he's saying about the utility company and all of that, but IMHO, Stericycle plays a far more integral part in the process. Others in the "Pro-Life" movement seem to see the distinction, but apparently Jack doesn't.
Yeah,That's why I used the analogy of being staunch Anti-Death Penalty while at the same time investing in a company that supplies the chemicals for the executions. He didn't see the contradiction in that either.

Didn't he simply say that your analogy made no sense? That's not the same as saying he saw no contradiction, you know... IIRC, he didn't comment on the "anti-death penalty" issue at all.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/9/2012, 1:26 am

Scorpion wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

But if I was as anti-choice as Jack is, there's no way in hell that I would invest in a company like Stericycle. I see what he's saying about the utility company and all of that, but IMHO, Stericycle plays a far more integral part in the process. Others in the "Pro-Life" movement seem to see the distinction, but apparently Jack doesn't.
Yeah,That's why I used the analogy of being staunch Anti-Death Penalty while at the same time investing in a company that supplies the chemicals for the executions. He didn't see the contradiction in that either.

Didn't he simply say that your analogy made no sense? That's not the same as saying he saw no contradiction, you know...
Sure it is. He never offered any explanation as to why he thought it made no sense.
Quote :
IIRC, he didn't comment on the "anti-death penalty" issue at all.
The example was not intended to start a discussion on the death penalty. It was meant as an example of similarities like providing support services for a procedure that someone claims to despise.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/9/2012, 8:38 am

happy jack wrote:

One more time, for the extremely slow-witted:
Stericycle does not provide abortions, nor does it cause abortions to take place.


One more time for the slow-witted denialist:
So then you would PROFIT from abortions, something that you abhor, just like Mitt Romney.

Mitt Romney profited from abortions, something that he was for before he was against it.

It's an unassailable fact:
jack is just like Mitt Romney, jack would have no problem benefiting financially from abortions.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/9/2012, 11:19 am

Scorpion wrote:

I see what he's saying about the utility company and all of that, but IMHO, Stericycle plays a far more integral part in the process.

I have to disagree. Stericycle did not even exist until 1989. However, between 1973 (the Roe v. Wade decision) and 1989, there were approximately 20 million reported abortions. The industry seemed to have been rolling along quite nicely without the services of Stericycle, and I believe I would be correct in assuming that, during that entire time, those abortions were not performed without benefit of light, power, and water. Those utilities are the very definition of an integral part of the process – Stericycle is not.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm






Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
Yeah,That's why I used the analogy of being staunch Anti-Death Penalty while at the same time investing in a company that supplies the chemicals for the executions. He didn't see the contradiction in that either.

Didn't he simply say that your analogy made no sense? That's not the same as saying he saw no contradiction, you know...
Sure it is. He never offered any explanation as to why he thought it made no sense.

I didn’t feel the need to say why your analogy made no sense – that is self-explanatory.
But, if I must ….
Without the prior manufacture and acquisition of the chemicals used in executions, it would not be possible for the executions to be carried out. But as I pointed out above, abortions were wholly able to take place, and will continue to be able to take place, with or without Stericycle.
Hence, your analogy blows.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/9/2012, 1:20 pm

happy jack wrote:

Artie60438 wrote:
Yeah,That's why I used the analogy of being staunch Anti-Death Penalty while at the same time investing in a company that supplies the chemicals for the executions. He didn't see the contradiction in that either.

[b]I didn’t feel the need to say why your analogy made no sense – that is self-explanatory.
But, if I must ….
Without the prior manufacture and acquisition of the chemicals used in executions, it would not be possible for the executions to be carried out. But as I pointed out above, abortions were wholly able to take place, and will continue to be able to take place, with or without Stericycle.
Hence, your analogy blows.
Dead wrong as usual. My analogy was exactly the same scenario as Stericycle. People like you and Rombot who rant and rave about abortion yet would invest in companies that profit from providing ancillary services are giant hypocrites to say the least.

What's the thinking??? You and Rombot allegedly want to stop abortions but hey if you can make a few bucks removing the dead fetuses it's ok because abortions are happening anyway? If you or Rombot were really true to your ideals,the morally right thing to do would be to find something else to invest in.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/9/2012, 2:57 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
My analogy was exactly the same scenario as Stericycle.
Actually, it was not even close.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/9/2012, 5:32 pm

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
My analogy was exactly the same scenario as Stericycle.
Actually, it was not even close.

I agree. But instead of wasting any more time arguing over the analogy, I'd really like to hear your answer to this...

Quote :
What's the thinking??? You and Rombot allegedly want to stop abortions but hey if you can make a few bucks removing the dead fetuses it's ok because abortions are happening anyway?

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/10/2012, 11:36 am

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
My analogy was exactly the same scenario as Stericycle.
Actually, it was not even close.

I agree. But instead of wasting any more time arguing over the analogy, I'd really like to hear your answer to this...

Quote :
What's the thinking??? You and Rombot allegedly want to stop abortions but hey if you can make a few bucks removing the dead fetuses it's ok because abortions are happening anyway?


Years ago, I worked for a company that accepted waste from industrial polluters. We precipitated the heavy metals out of solution, filtered the precipitates out of the solution, neutralized the solution, and essentially nullified the effects of the pollutants, allowing the end product to be safely disposed of within the sanitary sewer system. I suppose it can be argued that this company, and I, as an employee of this company, profited from pollution. But I have absolutely no moral qualms as to my participation in the process due to the fact that I did not contribute in any way, shape, or form to the initial pollution, much in the same way that Stericycle did absolutely nothing to provide or perform abortions. In both cases, the parties involved dealt with a by-product and aftermath of an unsavory practice, but neither party did anything whatsoever to instigate or further that unsavory practice. Abortions proliferated long before Stericycle came into existence, and will in all likelihood continue to proliferate long after Stericycle folds its tent, so the company itself, or those who invest in the company, have no effect on the number of abortions performed.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/10/2012, 1:33 pm

happy jack wrote:
Years ago, I worked for a company that accepted waste from industrial polluters. We precipitated the heavy metals out of solution, filtered the precipitates out of the solution, neutralized the solution, and essentially nullified the effects of the pollutants, allowing the end product to be safely disposed of within the sanitary sewer system. I suppose it can be argued that this company, and I, as an employee of this company, profited from pollution.

No, I don't think so.
Since your company "neutralized the solution and essentially nullified" the waste product, there was never any pollution to begin with.
Therefore, you did not profit from any polutuion. There was no polution.
You and your company made a profit by neutralizing the waste, making it safe and disposing it in a safe manner.
Fact is you and your company prevented pollution.
Environmentalists and us libruls would find that very commendable.

Your analogy sucks.

Quote :
What's the thinking??? You and Rombot allegedly want to stop abortions but hey if you can make a few bucks removing the dead fetuses it's ok because abortions are happening anyway
bingo


Last edited by edge540 on 7/10/2012, 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/10/2012, 3:08 pm

edge540 wrote:
Since your company "neutralized the solution and essentially nullified" the waste product, there was never any pollution to begin with.
Therefore, you did not profit from any polutuion. There was no polution.
Your analogy sucks.

Of course there was pollution to begin with. Before that company and others like them developed their processes, those pollutants used to go right into the sewer systems, with the untreatable metals ultimately ending up in lakes and rivers.
My analogy is spot on.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/10/2012, 3:16 pm

happy jack wrote:
edge540 wrote:
Since your company "neutralized the solution and essentially nullified" the waste product, there was never any pollution to begin with.
Therefore, you did not profit from any polutuion. There was no polution.
Your analogy sucks.

Of course there was pollution to begin with. Before that company and others like them developed their processes, those pollutants used to go right into the sewer systems, with the untreatable metals ultimately ending up in lakes and rivers.
My analogy is spot on.
No it's not.
There was no polution when YOU were working for the company that "neutralized the solution and essentially nullified" the waste product.
You and your company profited by preventing pollution. There is nothing "unsavory" about that.
Your analogy is not even close.
Your analogy would work if you invested in a company like Stericycle if it prevented abortion. Stericycle does not prevent abortions.
What happened "before" is not relevant.

This is what's "spot on:"
Quote :
You and Rombot allegedly want to stop abortions but hey if you can make a few bucks removing the dead fetuses it's ok because abortions are happening anyway?

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/24/2012, 6:51 pm

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120724/abortion-planned-parenthood-tonya-reaves-hemorrhage-baby-killer-pro-life

Planned Parenthood sorry over death of mother, 24, during Chicago abortion

Planned Parenthood has offered condolences to the family of Tonya Reaves, who hemorrhaged to death following an abortion at one of its Chicago clinics.

Freya PetersenJuly 24, 2012 07:00

Planned Parenthood has offered condolences to the family of Tonya Reaves, who hemorrhaged to death following an abortion at one of its Chicago clinics.
Reaves, 24, mother of a 1-year-old boy, died July 20 after undergoing what CBS News described as a “cervical dilation and evacuation” abortion procedure in the Planned Parenthood clinic at 18 S. Michigan Avenue.
According to the Cook County medical examiner’s office, although the abortion procedure contributed to Reaves’ death an intrauterine pregnancy was also blamed and her death was ruled an accident.









Tragic, obviously, but for an organization that causes thousands of deaths per day, one more is hardly newsworthy.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/24/2012, 9:47 pm

I don't think the end of a potential life can be called a death.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/25/2012, 1:14 am

KarenT wrote:
I don't think the end of a potential life can be called a death.

Potential life?
If there is a heartbeat, there is a life, plain and simple, not a "potential" life.
That is not a matter of opinion - that is a fact.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/25/2012, 6:51 am

Potential until it can live outside my body.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   7/25/2012, 9:36 am

happy jack wrote:
Potential life?
If there is a heartbeat, there is a life, plain and simple, not a "potential" life.
That is not a matter of opinion - that is a fact.

Thus criminalizing miscarriages and fertility clinics.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   8/23/2012, 1:35 pm

Candidate for Sheriff Calls Use of Deadly Force "Appropriate" to Stop an Abortion
Quote :
Frank Szabo is running to be a county sheriff in New Hampshire. The only problem is that he's not a big fan of following laws himself. Szabo has repeatedly stated that deadly force would be an appropriate way to stop an abortion from happening because "Just because a piece of legislation says it's legal to murder the unborn doesn't make it lawful."

Via the Bedford Patch:

"
Quote :
The big issue here is the sheriff is supposed to protect all of its citizens," he said. "Just because a person is not born yet doesn't mean he or she shouldn't have same level of protection. Someone needs to stand up and tell federal and state officials they're wrong if it's in the best interest of citizens ... but my main point is deadly force is always a last resort."

Oh, a last resort. Much better. Wouldn't want to jump straight to the murdering, right?

In case this sounds too crazy to be true, yes, there is a press release.

Quote :
Frank W. Szabo, candidate for Sheriff of Hillsborough County, announced to his supporters last night his position on abortion. The County Sheriff is duty-bound and fully authorized to protect the Citizens, their property and their Rights. That includes all Citizens. A Citizen’s Rights are Natural Rights and unalienable simply by virtue of the Citizen being alive. Life begins at conception. Abortion on demand is murder. Once elected, Sheriff Szabo will arrest anyone involved in the murder of a Citizen of Hillsborough County. For those confused about this position in relation to Roe v. Wade, Frank points out the fact that there have been many court decisions which were unconstitutional and unlawful. The Office of Sheriff requires that the Constitution be honored and obeyed in agreement with Common Law. Aborting otherwise healthy fetuses violates both.
If anyone ever decides to pitch a reality show titled "America's Craziest Sheriffs" this guy would be a slam dunk to invite to participate.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/5/2012, 11:41 am



This is an abortion debate from the Texas Freethought Convention a few weeks ago between Matt Dillahunty and Kristine Kruszelnicki. Worth watching, since Kristine's entire argument is happy's "It's a baby; don't kill it" personhood argument and Matt does a great job exposing it as the utterly simplistic and naive nonsense that it is.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/14/2012, 1:47 pm

The GOP's America:

Ireland 'should change abortion law' after woman's death

Quote :
[Savita Halappanavar] had turned up at UHG on 21 October and was found to be miscarrying but died of septicaemia a week later. She had asked medical staff several times over a three-day period to terminate the pregnancy.

. . .

Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar, said her repeated requests were turned down because she was 17 weeks pregnant and staff could detect a foetal heartbeat. The 34-year-old engineer has since revealed that his wife spent two and a half days "in agony" until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

After the dead foetus was removed, he said, his wife was taken to the hospital's intensive care unit where she died on 28 October.

Recounting her final days in UHG, he said: "Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said: 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything.'

"Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [an Indian Hindu] said: 'I am neither Irish nor Catholic,' but they said there was nothing they could do.

"That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took blood and started her on antibiotics.

"The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn't."

He recollected the moment he heard that medical staff were moving his wife into intensive care.

"They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren't functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her."

This is a Christian country, so fuck you, mom.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/14/2012, 2:33 pm

But hey, I'm sure Rick Santorum, Paul Ryan and jack are pleased.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/15/2012, 10:13 am

edge540 wrote:
But hey, I'm sure Rick Santorum, Paul Ryan and jack are pleased.

Why would I be pleased?
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/15/2012, 10:23 am


Hey, nice to see you back. Laughing

Please forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought you supported the GOP's platform on abortion along with Rick Santorum and Paul Ryan, that forbids abortion under all circumstances.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/15/2012, 10:28 am

edge540 wrote:
Please forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought you supported the GOP's platform on abortion along with Rick Santorum and Paul Ryan, that forbids abortion under all circumstances.

I forgive you for being wrong - again.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   11/15/2012, 11:13 am

Thank you.
So I take it your stance on abortion differs from that of Rick Santorum and Paul Ryan and you do not support the Personhood Amendment, correct?
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