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 Trayvon Martin Death Investigation

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chuckmo48
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Heretic

Heretic


Posts : 3520

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 11:41 am

happy jack wrote:
The Stand Your Ground laws state pretty clearly, unambiguously, and concisely how and when a victim may legally defend himself, without forcing said victim to have to memorize and interpret mass quantities of legal mumbo-jumbo in an already stressful, life-or-death situation.

Any actual before and after statutes to demonstrate said "mass quantities of legal mumbo-jumbo" and subsequent streamlining?
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edge540

edge540


Posts : 1165

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 1:47 pm

Hey come on now, what's wrong with more people getting killed?...eh?
WTF, what's wrong with 500 to 700 MORE homicides per year ?

Quote :
Study Says ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws Increase Homicides.

In April, more than a month after the shooting of Trayvon Martin, we looked the incidence of justifiable homicides in states with “stand your ground” or “castle doctrine” laws like Florida’s.

In general, such laws grant people more leeway to use lethal force on an attacker. More than 20 were passed after Florida’s in 2005. They typically do at least one of the following:

• Remove a person’s duty to retreat in places outside the home

• Add the presumption that the person who killed in self defense had a reasonable fear of death or harm

• Grant people who kill in self-defense immunity from civil lawsuits

Justifiable homicides nearly doubled from 2000 to 2010, according to the most recent data available, when 326 were reported. The data, provided by federal and state law enforcement agencies, showed a sharp increase in justifiable homicides occurred after 2005, when Florida and 16 other states passed the laws.

While the overall homicide rates in those states stayed relatively flat, the average number of justifiable cases per year increased by more than 50% in the decade’s latter half.

In a new study, an economics professor and a PhD student at Texas A&M University take a broader look at the laws’ effect. The authors, Professor Mark Hoekstra and Cheng Cheng, use state-level crime data from 2000 to 2009 to determine whether the laws deter crime.

The answer, they conclude, is no. In fact, the evidence suggests the laws have led to an increase in homicides.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/11/study-says-stand-your-ground-laws-increase-homicides/
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 2:19 pm

edge540 wrote:
Hey come on now, what's wrong with more people getting killed?...eh?
WTF, what's wrong with 500 to 700 MORE homicides per year ?

Quote :
Study Says ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws Increase Homicides.

In April, more than a month after the shooting of Trayvon Martin, we looked the incidence of justifiable homicides in states with “stand your ground” or “castle doctrine” laws like Florida’s.

In general, such laws grant people more leeway to use lethal force on an attacker. More than 20 were passed after Florida’s in 2005. They typically do at least one of the following:

• Remove a person’s duty to retreat in places outside the home

• Add the presumption that the person who killed in self defense had a reasonable fear of death or harm

• Grant people who kill in self-defense immunity from civil lawsuits

Justifiable homicides nearly doubled from 2000 to 2010, according to the most recent data available, when 326 were reported. The data, provided by federal and state law enforcement agencies, showed a sharp increase in justifiable homicides occurred after 2005, when Florida and 16 other states passed the laws.

While the overall homicide rates in those states stayed relatively flat, the average number of justifiable cases per year increased by more than 50% in the decade’s latter half.

In a new study, an economics professor and a PhD student at Texas A&M University take a broader look at the laws’ effect. The authors, Professor Mark Hoekstra and Cheng Cheng, use state-level crime data from 2000 to 2009 to determine whether the laws deter crime.

The answer, they conclude, is no. In fact, the evidence suggests the laws have led to an increase in homicides.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/11/study-says-stand-your-ground-laws-increase-homicides/
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edge540

edge540


Posts : 1165

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 2:57 pm

So what's wrong with letting drug dealers and gang members walk free?
Oh that's right, it's "justifiable", never mind.
Is this a great law or what?

Quote :
Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied
June 3, Florida's "stand your ground'' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free. It has stymied prosecutors and confused judges. • It has also served its intended purpose, exonerating dozens of people who were deemed to be legitimately acting in self-defense. Among them: a woman who was choked and beaten by an irate tenant and a man who was threatened in his driveway by a felon.

Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

Cases with similar facts show surprising — sometimes shocking — differences in outcomes. If you claim "stand your ground" as the reason you shot someone, what happens to you can depend less on the merits of the case than on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided.

Today, the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teen, by a Hispanic neighborhood watch captain has prompted a renewed look at Florida's controversial law.

In the most comprehensive effort of its kind, the Tampa Bay Times has identified nearly 200 "stand your ground'' cases and their outcomes. The Times identified cases through media reports, court records and dozens of interviews with prosecutors and defense attorneys across the state...

• People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1233133.ece
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 5:23 pm

edge540 wrote:
So what's wrong with letting drug dealers and gang members walk free?
Oh that's right, it's "justifiable", never mind.
Is this a great law or what?
That study you referenced also found that there is no evidence that these SYG laws deter crime. Shocked
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 7:12 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
edge540 wrote:
So what's wrong with letting drug dealers and gang members walk free?
Oh that's right, it's "justifiable", never mind.
Is this a great law or what?
That study you referenced also found that there is no evidence that these SYG laws deter crime. Shocked


Crime was deterred in nearly 163 cases, according to edge.

edge540 wrote:

Justifiable homicides nearly doubled from 2000 to 2010, according to the most recent data available, when 326 were reported.
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Scorpion

Scorpion


Posts : 2141

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/11/2012, 7:26 pm

Here is a link to the actual study.

http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf

Instead of cherry picking it, why not try reading it?

You might actually learn something.
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Heretic

Heretic


Posts : 3520

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/12/2012, 11:05 am

I wrote:
happy jack wrote:
The Stand Your Ground laws state pretty clearly, unambiguously, and concisely how and when a victim may legally defend himself, without forcing said victim to have to memorize and interpret mass quantities of legal mumbo-jumbo in an already stressful, life-or-death situation.

Any actual before and after statutes to demonstrate said "mass quantities of legal mumbo-jumbo" and subsequent streamlining?

BUMP
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Heretic

Heretic


Posts : 3520

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/12/2012, 11:34 am

Scorpion wrote:
Here is a link to the actual study.

http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf

Instead of cherry picking it, why not try reading it?

You might actually learn something.

Thanks for that. Nice to see some actual research on policy.
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/12/2012, 5:53 pm

George Zimmerman's wife arrested, charged with perjury
Quote :
In an affidavit, prosecutors revealed new details about Shellie Zimmerman's alleged efforts to hide money from the court.

Four days before she testified to having no knowledge of the funds, the affidavit says, Shellie Zimmerman began a series of transfers into her account — totaling $74,000 between April 16 and April 19.

The affidavit says about $47,000 more was transferred from George Zimmerman's account to his sister's. Shellie Zimmerman withdrew about $18,000 more in cash, prosecutors say.

Prosecutors say the Zimmermans used a rudimentary "code" to discuss the money in recorded jailhouse phone calls — referring to $100,000, for example, as "$100." At least two of the calls, the state alleges, were made while Shellie Zimmerman and her husband's sister were at a local credit union making the transactions.

Zimmerman told his wife to "pay off all the bills" with the money, prosecutors said, including an American Express card and a Sam's Club card. He also instructed her on how to pay for his bail.
I wonder how the suckers who sent money to Zimmerman feel now,knowing he used it to pay off his credit cards. Laughing
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/12/2012, 6:25 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
[ The point that you're missing is that Danaher most likely would still be alive today if had not been for that idiotic SYG law that encourages nutjobs like Rodriguez to run around with guns and bully people.

Laws don't kill people - people kill people.
What an ignorant statement! The SYG law clearly emboldened that nut. All you have to do is listen to his dialogue as he tries to make a case just before he he starts shooting.
Both sides rest in 'stand your ground' trial of ex-firefighter who killed teacher
Quote :
Jurors last week viewed a 22-minute video in which Rodriguez claimed he feared for his life, and acted in self defense when he shot and killed Danaher, and wounded party-goers Ricky Johnson and Marshall Stetson.

But today, prosecutors called a neighbor to the stand who poked holes in those self defense claims, and portrayed Rodriguez as trigger-happy.

Terri Hackathorn testified how Rodriguez often bragged about his arsenal of weapons and she recalled an "unusual conversation" she and Rodriguez had a couple of months before the shooting.

Hackathorn testified Rodriguez came to her home excited about a new gun he bought, and coaching her about Texas’ "stand your ground" laws.

"As long as you tell authorities you fear for your life, than you can shoot (any) son of a bi**h," Hackathorn said Rodriguez told her.
IMO,This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SYG law clearly emboldened Rodriguez to murder an innocent man.
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/12/2012, 9:24 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
IMO,This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SYG law clearly emboldened Rodriguez to murder an innocent man.
Rodriguez pulled the trigger.
The law did not.
Rodriguez has fingers.
The law does not.
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/12/2012, 9:50 pm

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
IMO,This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SYG law clearly emboldened Rodriguez to murder an innocent man.
[b]Rodriguez pulled the trigger.
The law did not.
Rodriguez has fingers.
The law does not.
I won the argument
You did not
You're still the board pinata
I am not.
Sleep Good night,troll and thanks for playing the part of village idiot. Laughing
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 9:54 am

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
IMO,This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the SYG law clearly emboldened Rodriguez to murder an innocent man.
[b]Rodriguez pulled the trigger.
The law did not.
Rodriguez has fingers.
The law does not.
I won the argument
You did not
You're still the board pinata
I am not.
Sleep Good night,troll and thanks for playing the part of village idiot. Laughing


A person such as Rodriguez, who seemed to be bound and determined to shoot someone, will find a way to do so. A person such as Rodriguez may use as his rationale the voices in his head, his unrequited love for Jodie Foster, or the misinterpretation of a Stand Your Ground law. But one way or another, for whatever twisted reason, such a person will inevitably do what he feels is his sick duty.
The law did not kill Danaher - Rodriguez, and Rodriguez alone, killed Danaher.
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Heretic

Heretic


Posts : 3520

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 11:01 am

None of what you wrote negates Rodriguez's belief that he was legally justified in shooting Danaher as a factor in the murder. And yes, the possibility does exist that had it not been a factor, Danaher may still be alive. This isn't terribly surprising given the research cited above.

Quote :
[W]e find significant evidence that the laws increase homicides. Suggestive but inconclusive evidence indicates that castle doctrine laws increase the narrowly defined category of justifiable homicides by private citizens by 17 to 50 percent, which translates into as many as 50 additional justifiable homicides per year nationally due to castle doctrine. More significantly, we find the laws increase murder and manslaughter by a statistically significant 7 to 9 percent, which translates into an additional 500 to 700 homicides per year nationally across the states that adopted castle doctrine. Thus, by lowering the expected costs associated with using lethal force, castle doctrine laws induce more of it. This increase in homicides could be due either to the increased use of lethal force in self-defense situations, or to the escalation of violence in otherwise non-lethal conflicts. We suspect that self-defense situations are unlikely to explain all of the increase, as we also find that murder alone is increased by a statistically significant 6 to 11 percent. This is important because murder excludes non-negligent manslaughter classifications that one might think are used more frequently in self-defense cases. But regardless of how one interprets increases from various classifications, it is clear that the primary effect of strengthening self-defense law is to increase homicide.
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 11:10 am

Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Bo120613a
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 12:29 pm

Heretic wrote:
.... castle doctrine laws increase the narrowly defined category of justifiable homicides by private citizens by 17 to 50 percent, which translates into as many as 50 additional justifiable homicides per year nationally due to castle doctrine.



Heretic wrote:
.... it is clear that the primary effect of strengthening self-defense law is to increase homicide.

Why does everyone opposed to the Stand Your Ground laws seem so upset that the deaths of criminal aggressors are accounting for the increase in homicides?
That is truly baffling.


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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 1:15 pm

happy jack wrote:
Why does everyone opposed to the Stand Your Ground laws seem so upset that the deaths of criminal aggressors are accounting for the increase in homicides?
That is truly baffling.[/b]
We're upset that innocent people are being murdered by the likes of Rodriguez and George Zimmerman.
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Heretic

Heretic


Posts : 3520

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 5:41 pm

happy jack wrote:
Why does everyone opposed to the Stand Your Ground laws seem so upset that the deaths of criminal aggressors are accounting for the increase in homicides?
That is truly baffling.

They wouldn't be... were it in fact happening. But it's not.

Quote :
[W]e find significant evidence that the laws increase homicides. Suggestive but inconclusive evidence indicates that castle doctrine laws increase the narrowly defined category of justifiable homicides by private citizens by 17 to 50 percent, which translates into as many as 50 additional justifiable homicides per year nationally due to castle doctrine. More significantly, we find the laws increase murder and manslaughter by a statistically significant 7 to 9 percent, which translates into an additional 500 to 700 homicides per year nationally across the states that adopted castle doctrine. Thus, by lowering the expected costs associated with using lethal force, castle doctrine laws induce more of it. This increase in homicides could be due either to the increased use of lethal force in self-defense situations, or to the escalation of violence in otherwise non-lethal conflicts. We suspect that self-defense situations are unlikely to explain all of the increase, as we also find that murder alone is increased by a statistically significant 6 to 11 percent. This is important because murder excludes non-negligent manslaughter classifications that one might think are used more frequently in self-defense cases. But regardless of how one interprets increases from various classifications, it is clear that the primary effect of strengthening self-defense law is to increase homicide.

Again, you might try actually reading the study.
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Scorpion

Scorpion


Posts : 2141

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/13/2012, 6:39 pm

Heretic wrote:
happy jack wrote:
Why does everyone opposed to the Stand Your Ground laws seem so upset that the deaths of criminal aggressors are accounting for the increase in homicides?
That is truly baffling.

They wouldn't be... were it in fact happening. But it's not.

Quote :
[W]e find significant evidence that the laws increase homicides. Suggestive but inconclusive evidence indicates that castle doctrine laws increase the narrowly defined category of justifiable homicides by private citizens by 17 to 50 percent, which translates into as many as 50 additional justifiable homicides per year nationally due to castle doctrine. More significantly, we find the laws increase murder and manslaughter by a statistically significant 7 to 9 percent, which translates into an additional 500 to 700 homicides per year nationally across the states that adopted castle doctrine. Thus, by lowering the expected costs associated with using lethal force, castle doctrine laws induce more of it. This increase in homicides could be due either to the increased use of lethal force in self-defense situations, or to the escalation of violence in otherwise non-lethal conflicts. We suspect that self-defense situations are unlikely to explain all of the increase, as we also find that murder alone is increased by a statistically significant 6 to 11 percent. This is important because murder excludes non-negligent manslaughter classifications that one might think are used more frequently in self-defense cases. But regardless of how one interprets increases from various classifications, it is clear that the primary effect of strengthening self-defense law is to increase homicide.

Again, you might try actually reading the study.

Yep. That's why I posted it. Instead of having an informed opinion, Jack seems to prefer to believe that everyone who disagrees with him is on the side of the criminals.

Hopefully, he'll take the hint this time and read the damn study.
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/14/2012, 12:04 am

Jury finds retired firefighter guilty in ‘stand your ground’ murder trial
Quote :
HOUSTON—A jury has found a retired Baytown firefighter guilty of murder in the killing of his neighbor in a dispute over loud music.

Closing arguments were delivered Wednesday in the murder trial of 47-year-old Raul Rodriguez.
cheers He can now "stand his ground" in an 8 by 10 foot cell for the rest of his life. Cool
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/14/2012, 10:37 am

Scorpion wrote:
Yep. That's why I posted it. Instead of having an informed opinion, Jack seems to prefer to believe that everyone who disagrees with him is on the side of the criminals.

Hopefully, he'll take the hint this time and read the damn study.



Thank you for posting your suggestive but inconclusive study.
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happy jack




Posts : 6988

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/14/2012, 10:41 am

Artie60438 wrote:
Jury finds retired firefighter guilty in ‘stand your ground’ murder trial
Quote :
HOUSTON—A jury has found a retired Baytown firefighter guilty of murder in the killing of his neighbor in a dispute over loud music.

Closing arguments were delivered Wednesday in the murder trial of 47-year-old Raul Rodriguez.
cheers He can now "stand his ground" in an 8 by 10 foot cell for the rest of his life. Cool



The person who committed the crime is in jail, but the law that he misinterpreted and attempted to misuse is not in jail.
Funny how the justice system works, ain't it?
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Artie60438




Posts : 9728

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/14/2012, 11:48 am

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
Jury finds retired firefighter guilty in ‘stand your ground’ murder trial
Quote :
HOUSTON—A jury has found a retired Baytown firefighter guilty of murder in the killing of his neighbor in a dispute over loud music.

Closing arguments were delivered Wednesday in the murder trial of 47-year-old Raul Rodriguez.
cheers He can now "stand his ground" in an 8 by 10 foot cell for the rest of his life. Cool

[b]The person who committed the crime is in jail, but the law that he misinterpreted and attempted to misuse is not in jail.
This story has now gone national. This idiotic law that ignorant gun nuts worship is now under review in places like Florida Very Happy

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Heretic

Heretic


Posts : 3520

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   Trayvon Martin Death Investigation - Page 15 Empty6/14/2012, 1:15 pm

I wrote:
happy jack wrote:
The Stand Your Ground laws state pretty clearly, unambiguously, and concisely how and when a victim may legally defend himself, without forcing said victim to have to memorize and interpret mass quantities of legal mumbo-jumbo in an already stressful, life-or-death situation.

Any actual before and after statutes to demonstrate said "mass quantities of legal mumbo-jumbo" and subsequent streamlining?

BUMP
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