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 Trayvon Martin Death Investigation

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KarenT



Posts : 1328

PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/29/2012, 10:30 pm

To be honest, I would like to think it would not matter. If our eyes met, I would probably smile, nod, or comment on the cold weather.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 1:07 am

chuckmo48 wrote:
KarenT wrote:
Good point, Jack - I don't think race needs to be mentioned most times.
Question...If you are walking alone down a sidewalk and black male walks towards you with a hoodie over his head...what would go through your mind...NOW compare that to the feeling you would have in the same situation but the person is a white male...
I don't understand the question. Could you clarify?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 1:20 am

chuckmo48 wrote:
Here is the real problem in all this...The Stand Your Ground Law:
Quote :
In part it reads:"He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself
[/color]
The Stand Your Ground law gives a potential victim very clear and unambiguous guidance as to what he may do in order to save his own life. When someone finds himself in a life or death situation, the last thing he needs is to be forced to sift through a litany of legal mumbo-jumbo. By the time he decides what he is or is not allowed to do, he is dead.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 1:42 am

chuckmo48 wrote:
So if I am a Florida resident and someone pisses me off and I can say that I reasonably believe that person was going to kill me I can legally kill him...
No, if someone merely pisses you off, you cannot 'legally' kill him. You may invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, but if an investigation establishes that you killed someone who was not a reasonable threat to you, you would not be covered under the Stand Your Ground law, and you would be subject to prosecution. It's really very simple.
(Incidentally, Indiana has a very similar law, in case you were unaware.)
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chuckmo48

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 8:52 am

happy jack wrote:
chuckmo48 wrote:
So if I am a Florida resident and someone pisses me off and I can say that I reasonably believe that person was going to kill me I can legally kill him...
No, if someone merely pisses you off, you cannot 'legally' kill him. You may invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, but if an investigation establishes that you killed someone who was not a reasonable threat to you, you would not be covered under the Stand Your Ground law, and you would be subject to prosecution. It's really very simple.
(Incidentally, Indiana has a very similar law, in case you were unaware.)
How is that simple? What my perception of a reasonable threat may be very different from yours...and in the case if there is prosecution...one thing is constant...there is a dead person...so oops my bad...
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 9:31 am

happy jack wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/why-did-new-york-times-call-george-zimmerman-white-hispanic/2012/03/28/gIQAW6fngS_blog.html | RSS Feed

Posted at 01:52 PM ET, 03/28/2012 TheWashingtonPost

Why did New York Times call George Zimmerman ‘white Hispanic’?

Good question.
Any guesses, anyone?
It's pretty obvious to me, George Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic, so what's the big deal? My question is why are two conservative right wing hacks making such a big fuss about it?

Quote :
And I wonder what our white black president thinks about this.
Why? Why should the president even be thinking about nonsense like this?....oh wait, never mind, that's an attempt at satire.

So why is George Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman accusing the president of hate without any evidence? Why is he making up crap and lying?

“I never foresaw so much hate coming from the president"-Robert Zimmerman
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 11:29 am

edge540 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/why-did-new-york-times-call-george-zimmerman-white-hispanic/2012/03/28/gIQAW6fngS_blog.html | RSS Feed

Posted at 01:52 PM ET, 03/28/2012 TheWashingtonPost

Why did New York Times call George Zimmerman ‘white Hispanic’?

Good question.
Any guesses, anyone?
It's pretty obvious to me, George Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic ....


Right.
It’s pretty obvious to me, too.
The fact that George Zimmerman is partially Hispanic is problematic for the media. Luckily for them, his name is not inconveniently ethnic, as it would be if he were named, say, Jorge Zambrano. But, the problem remains that he is at least a half of a minority, which is the prism through which the major media view such things. If the headline were written ‘Hispanic Man Kills Black Man’, it wouldn’t pack the sufficient punch, and wouldn’t advance the national narrative the media seek, which is that an innocent black was killed by a white racist and, by extension, by the racist white system that had it in for him all along. But when the narrative is framed with the headline ‘White Hispanic Stalks and Kills Black Child’, with emphases on ‘white’ and ‘child’, that makes it easy for them because, as we all know, whites walk around and stalk black children on a daily basis, and then go home at the end of the day, burn a cross or two, and bleach their white sheets and hoods so as to be fresh for the next day’s work.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 11:35 am

edge540 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/why-did-new-york-times-call-george-zimmerman-white-hispanic/2012/03/28/gIQAW6fngS_blog.html | RSS Feed

Posted at 01:52 PM ET, 03/28/2012 TheWashingtonPost

Why did New York Times call George Zimmerman ‘white Hispanic’?

Good question.
Any guesses, anyone?
It's pretty obvious to me, George Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic, so what's the big deal?
So, edge, in the last few years, have you ever, even one time, seen the New York Times refer to Barack Obama as our White African-American president? After all, he does have a mixed-race heritage, does he not?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 11:42 am

chuckmo48 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
chuckmo48 wrote:
So if I am a Florida resident and someone pisses me off and I can say that I reasonably believe that person was going to kill me I can legally kill him...
No, if someone merely pisses you off, you cannot 'legally' kill him. You may invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, but if an investigation establishes that you killed someone who was not a reasonable threat to you, you would not be covered under the Stand Your Ground law, and you would be subject to prosecution. It's really very simple.
(Incidentally, Indiana has a very similar law, in case you were unaware.)
How is that simple? What my perception of a reasonable threat may be very different from yours...and in the case if there is prosecution...one thing is constant...there is a dead person...so oops my bad...

Yes, your perception of a reasonable threat may indeed be very different from mine.
But, fear not – I have the ideal solution.
Whenever a person’s perceptions or inner thoughts are legally in question, we need only hook that person up to the same mind-reading machine that is used to determine what was in someone’s mind while they are on trial for committing an alleged hate crime.
See how these things work themselves out when you put just a little bit of thought into it?

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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 1:43 pm

happy jack wrote:
The fact that George Zimmerman is partially Hispanic is problematic for the media.
Well no it is not and there is no evidence that it is.
Quote :
Luckily for them, his name is not inconveniently ethnic, as it would be if he were named, say, Jorge Zambrano. But, the problem remains that he is at least a half of a minority, which is the prism through which the major media view such things.
Again there is no evidence of that and it's nothing more than a right wing talking point that's repeated ad nauseum. Actually that's the prism through which conservatives view such things. Conservatives constantly whine and cry about the librul "lame street media." 24-7
Quote :
If the headline were written ‘Hispanic Man Kills Black Man’, it wouldn’t pack the sufficient punch, and wouldn’t advance the national narrative the media seek, which is that an innocent black was killed by a white racist and, by extension, by the racist white system that had it in for him all along.
Bullshit.
I have seen no such thing by the major media . I have not seen hysterical hyperbole like that in any major newspaper nor any major news outlet on TV.
Let's see the evidence, please give us an example of how, "the national narrative the media seek, which is that an innocent black was killed by a white racist."
Quote :
But when the narrative is framed with the headline ‘White Hispanic Stalks and Kills Black Child’

Link please, I'd like to see that headline.
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chuckmo48

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 2:55 pm

happy jack wrote:
Whenever a person’s perceptions or inner thoughts are legally in question, we need only hook that person up to the same mind-reading machine that is used to determine what was in someone’s mind while they are on trial for committing an alleged hate crime.[/b]
Never mentioned anything about a hate crime...My biggest problem with this whole situation is the 1850's gun laws we have in certain parts of this country...and the mind set that possessing guns are an inalienable right that every human is born with...Geez to legally drive a car you must at least pass some kind of ability test and purchase insurance in case of accidents...
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KarenT



Posts : 1328

PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 3:49 pm

OOOOOHHH - insurance for gun owners! I like that idea. Then if a bullet accidentally rams into someone, that person can sue the driver of the gun.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 4:42 pm

chuckmo48 wrote:
Never mentioned anything about a hate crime...

I am aware that you never mentioned anything about a hate crime, but you did raise the issue of perception when you said ….

chuckmo48 wrote:
What my perception of a reasonable threat may be very different from yours

…. and since the concept of a hate crime is entirely about perception, I was trying to be helpful by suggesting that if you wish to divine someone’s ‘perceptions’, you might be well-served using the same mind-reading machine that is used to determine whether someone had bias in his mind when he committed his alleged ‘hate crime’.
Does that clear things up for you?


Last edited by happy jack on 3/30/2012, 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 4:44 pm

edge540 wrote:
happy jack wrote:
The fact that George Zimmerman is partially Hispanic is problematic for the media.
Well no it is not and there is no evidence that it is.
Quote :
Luckily for them, his name is not inconveniently ethnic, as it would be if he were named, say, Jorge Zambrano. But, the problem remains that he is at least a half of a minority, which is the prism through which the major media view such things.
Again there is no evidence of that and it's nothing more than a right wing talking point that's repeated ad nauseum. Actually that's the prism through which conservatives view such things. Conservatives constantly whine and cry about the librul "lame street media." 24-7
Quote :
If the headline were written ‘Hispanic Man Kills Black Man’, it wouldn’t pack the sufficient punch, and wouldn’t advance the national narrative the media seek, which is that an innocent black was killed by a white racist and, by extension, by the racist white system that had it in for him all along.
Bullshit.
I have seen no such thing by the major media . I have not seen hysterical hyperbole like that in any major newspaper nor any major news outlet on TV.
Let's see the evidence, please give us an example of how, "the national narrative the media seek, which is that an innocent black was killed by a white racist."
Quote :
But when the narrative is framed with the headline ‘White Hispanic Stalks and Kills Black Child’

Link please, I'd like to see that headline.

Just offering my take on things, edge, so you may untwist those panties at your earliest convenience. You may not agree with the way I perceive things, but it’s just my perception - nothing more. And, quite obviously, I cannot provide links to how I perceive things (unless, of course, you want to hook me up to that Hi-tech Hate Crime Mind-Reading Machine).
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 5:37 pm

happy jack wrote:
You may not agree with the way I perceive things, but it’s just my perception - nothing more. And, quite obviously, I cannot provide links to how I perceive things (unless, of course, you want to hook me up to that Hi-tech Hate Crime Mind-Reading Machine).

First of all, I just want to note that I have not taken a position on this incident. But I do have a question for you, Jack.

You specifically said that the "concept" of "hate crimes" is based "entirely upon perceptions." So, I'm curious... when blacks were lynched in the South because they were black, would you have considered that a hate crime? How about burning a cross on a black family's lawn? Would you "perceive" that as a hate crime? Is "mind reading" necessary to determine "bias" in situation like those?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 6:32 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You may not agree with the way I perceive things, but it’s just my perception - nothing more. And, quite obviously, I cannot provide links to how I perceive things (unless, of course, you want to hook me up to that Hi-tech Hate Crime Mind-Reading Machine).

First of all, I just want to note that I have not taken a position on this incident. But I do have a question for you, Jack.

You specifically said that the "concept" of "hate crimes" is based "entirely upon perceptions." So, I'm curious... when blacks were lynched in the South because they were black, would you have considered that a hate crime? How about burning a cross on a black family's lawn? Would you "perceive" that as a hate crime? Is "mind reading" necessary to determine "bias" in situation like those?

I suppose you can give any sort of name you choose to a crime such as lynching or cross-burning, but the crime itself remains the same, regardless of what you choose to call it.
My entire premise has always been that a person should be punished for his crime based upon the crime itself, not based upon his perception of the victim’s ethnic/racial/gender/religious/sexual persuasion/socioeconomic group.
If a person participates in a lynching resulting in the death of a person of any ethnic/racial/gender/religious/sexual persuasion/socioeconomic group, that person should be tried for murder.
If a person burns a cross on a lawn belonging to a member of any ethnic/racial/gender/religious/sexual persuasion/socioeconomic group, he should be tried according to whatever particular laws happen to be applicable in that case.
Long story short, a white man killing a black man should not be punished any more severely than a white man killing a white man, or a black man killing a white man, or a black man killing a black man.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 7:07 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:
You may not agree with the way I perceive things, but it’s just my perception - nothing more. And, quite obviously, I cannot provide links to how I perceive things (unless, of course, you want to hook me up to that Hi-tech Hate Crime Mind-Reading Machine).

First of all, I just want to note that I have not taken a position on this incident. But I do have a question for you, Jack.

You specifically said that the "concept" of "hate crimes" is based "entirely upon perceptions." So, I'm curious... when blacks were lynched in the South because they were black, would you have considered that a hate crime? How about burning a cross on a black family's lawn? Would you "perceive" that as a hate crime? Is "mind reading" necessary to determine "bias" in situation like those?

I suppose you can give any sort of name you choose to a crime such as lynching or cross-burning, but the crime itself remains the same, regardless of what you choose to call it.

Yeah, well I respectfully disagree. If a crime is committed because of a person's race, then I really don't see how you cannot call that a "hate" or "bias" crime. Just for starters, the crime is fundamentally different because of the effect it has on other members of the same group as the victim.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 7:57 pm

Scorpion wrote:

Yeah, well I respectfully disagree. If a crime is committed because of a person's race, then I really don't see how you cannot call that a "hate" or "bias" crime. Just for starters, the crime is fundamentally different because of the effect it has on other members of the same group as the victim.
Exactly....and the crimes are usually intimidation used to send a message. Black family moves into an all=white neighborhood and a cross gets burned on the lawn 2 days later. That clearly sends a message that Blacks are not welcome. Thus any black families looking to also move into that neighborhood might be reluctant as a result.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 8:49 pm

Scorpion wrote:
If a crime is committed because of a person's race, then I really don't see how you cannot call that a "hate" or "bias" crime.


You may 'call' it whatever you want, but no matter what you 'call' it, the crime is still the crime is still the crime, and the perpetrator should be punished based upon the laws relating to the crime itself, not punished because of why or upon whom the crime was perpetrated.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/30/2012, 10:00 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:
If a crime is committed because of a person's race, then I really don't see how you cannot call that a "hate" or "bias" crime.


You may 'call' it whatever you want, but no matter what you 'call' it, the crime is still the crime is still the crime, and the perpetrator should be punished based upon the laws relating to the crime itself, not punished because of why or upon whom the crime was perpetrated.

I "call it" exactly what is is - a hate crime. There are reasons that we have hate crime laws. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But I don't think you have a full understanding of what a hate crime actually is...

"Cross burning," for example is a clear attempt at intimidation, and it's directed not just at one black family, but other blacks as well. What are you suggesting? That it be treated as simple trespassing and a violation of "open fire" ordinances?

Give me a frickin' break!
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/31/2012, 10:38 am

Scorpion wrote:

"Cross burning," for example is a clear attempt at intimidation, and it's directed not just at one black family, but other blacks as well.

So charge the perpetrator with intimidation, and if any of the other blacks you claim were affected by the act wish to come forward to demonstrate to the court how they were harmed, and to press charges, they may do so. But you can’t just presume that because the perpetrator committed a crime against one black person that he committed a crime against all black persons. He should be tried only for the crime he actually committed, not for the crime you think he committed.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/31/2012, 10:51 am

KarenT wrote:
OOOOOHHH - insurance for gun owners! I like that idea. Then if a bullet accidentally rams into someone, that person can sue the driver of the gun.
I would hate to be on the receiving end of that rear-end collision.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/31/2012, 11:05 am

Since we are already on the subject of hate crimes ....
All we need is the calmative effect of the Reverend Al Sharpton to pour oil upon the troubled waters. As we have seen in the past, whenever the good Reverend involves himself, things usually end smashingly well.


“White folks was in the caves while we [blacks] was building empires … We built pyramids before Donald Trump ever knew what architecture was … we taught philosophy and astrology and mathematics before Socrates and them Greek homos ever got around to it.”

…. America’s founders consisted of “the worst criminals, the rejects they sent from Europe and sent them to the colonies.” “So [if] some cracker,” he continued, “come and tell you ‘Well my mother and father blood go back to the Mayflower,’ you better hold you pocket. That ain’t nothing to be proud of, that means their forefathers was crooks.”

The Very Reverend Al Sharpton


What a major turd.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-30/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-al-sharpton-20120330_1_civil-disobedience-national-action-network-national-association

Al Sharpton: Civil disobedience will escalate if Zimmerman remains free

2:22 p.m. EST, March 30, 2012|

By Arelis R. Hernández, Orlando Sentinel

If George Zimmerman is not arrested in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin soon, theRev. Al Sharpton will call for an escalation in peaceful civil disobedience and economic sanctions.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/31/2012, 11:30 am

happy jack wrote:

What a major turd.
Speaking of "major turds" here's your boy Brent Bozell....
MRC’s Brent Bozell To Hannity: Trayvon Martin Is ‘Another Tawana Brawley Moment’
Quote :
The outrage over the way some in the media have been covering the tragedy of Trayvon Martin has crossed partisan lines, as last night Brent Bozell of the conservative Media Research Center targeted the “liberal media,” particularly NBC and MSNBC, for their role in advancing the story. Bozell spoke to Sean Hannity during his regular segment on the eponymous program and condemned the “falsehoods” of NBC and called the shooting “another Tawana Brawley moment.”
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: Trayvon Martin Death Investigation   3/31/2012, 11:34 am

happy jack wrote:

Just offering my take on things, edge, so you may untwist those panties at your earliest convenience.
I don't have anything to untwist. I'm not the one who is hyperventilating and ranting about the media, you are.
Quote :
You may not agree with the way I perceive things, but it’s just my perception - nothing more.
Yeah well I'm afraid you're "take on things" and the way you perceive things is detached from reality, is delusional and not based on facts.

It's why you can't back up your bullshit.
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