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happy jack

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PostSubject: Voter Identification   4/28/2011, 3:57 pm

Can anyone explain why this is, as the New York Times asserts, a "threat to voting"?
I can understand how this could be a threat to voting by non-citizens, or a threat to voting by non-residents, or a threat to voting by those who may feel a need to vote more than once, but I cannot fathom how this can be construed as a threat to voting, per se.
The New York Times frames it as a threat to those who typically vote Democrat.
Are they saying that Democrat voters are too stupid to obtain a photo ID?
Too irresponsible?
Too lazy?
We learned in Florida, in the 2000 election, that Democrats had some serious comprehension problems with a simple ballot, but even I will concede that the ballot may have been more confusing and further beyond the limited skills of the average Democrat than the moronically simple task of obtaining a form of identification.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/opinion/27wed1.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=voter%20id&st=Search

The Republican Threat to Voting

Published: April 26, 2011

Less than a year before the 2012 presidential voting begins, Republican legislatures and governors across the country are rewriting voting laws to make it much harder for the young, the poor and African-Americans — groups that typically vote Democratic — to cast a ballot.
Spreading fear of a nonexistent flood of voter fraud, they are demanding that citizens be required to show a government-issued identification before they are allowed to vote. Republicans have been pushing these changes for years, but now more than two-thirds of the states have adopted or are considering such laws. The Advancement Project, an advocacy group of civil rights lawyers, correctly describes the push as “the largest legislative effort to scale back voting rights in a century.”
Anyone who has stood on the long lines at a motor vehicle office knows that it isn’t easy to get such documents. For working people, it could mean giving up a day’s wages.
A survey by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law found that 11 percent of citizens, 21 million people, do not have a current photo ID. That fraction increases to 15 percent of low-income voting-age citizens, 18 percent of young eligible voters and 25 percent of black eligible voters. Those demographic groups tend to vote Democratic, and Republicans are imposing requirements that they know many will be unable to meet.
Kansas’ new law was drafted by its secretary of state, Kris Kobach, who also wrote Arizona’s anti-immigrant law. Voters will be required to show a photo ID at the polls. Before they can register, Kansans will have to produce a proof of citizenship, such as a birth certificate.
Tough luck if you don’t happen to have one in your pocket when you’re at the county fair and you pass the voter registration booth. Or when the League of Women Voters brings its High School Registration Project to your school cafeteria. Or when you show up at your dorm at the University of Kansas without your birth certificate. Sorry, you won’t be voting in Lawrence, and probably not at all.
That’s fine with Gov. Sam Brownback, who said he signed the bill because it’s necessary to “ensure the sanctity of the vote.” Actually, Kansas has had only one prosecution for voter fraud in the last six years. But because of that vast threat to Kansas democracy, an estimated 620,000 Kansas residents who lack a government ID now stand to lose their right to vote.
Eight states already had photo ID laws. Now more than 30 other states are joining the bandwagon of disenfranchisement, as Republicans outdo each other to propose bills with new voting barriers. The Wisconsin bill refuses to recognize college photo ID cards, even if they are issued by a state university, thus cutting off many students at the University of Wisconsin and other campuses. The Texas bill, so vital that Gov. Rick Perry declared it emergency legislation, would also reject student IDs, but would allow anyone with a handgun license to vote.
A Florida bill would curtail early voting periods, which have proved popular and brought in new voters, and would limit address changes at the polls. “I’m going to call this bill for what it is, good-old-fashioned voter suppression,” Ben Wilcox of the League of Women Voters told The Florida Times-Union.
Many of these bills were inspired by the American Legislative Exchange Council, a business-backed conservative group, which has circulated voter ID proposals in scores of state legislatures. The Supreme Court, unfortunately, has already upheld Indiana’s voter ID requirement, in a 2008 decision that helped unleash the stampede of new bills. Most of the bills have yet to pass, and many may not meet the various balancing tests required by the Supreme Court. There is still time for voters who care about democracy in their states to speak out against lawmakers who do not.

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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/29/2011, 6:47 am

I don't understand what the problem is. If you don't have a valid ID, there are so many things you can't do - travel by air, buy alcohol, etc. I don't think it's that hard to get one.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/29/2011, 9:56 am

KarenT wrote:
I don't understand what the problem is. If you don't have a valid ID, there are so many things you can't do - travel by air, buy alcohol, etc. I don't think it's that hard to get one.

Yeah, well what about this part?

Quote :
The Wisconsin bill refuses to recognize college photo ID cards, even if they are issued by a state university, thus cutting off many students at the University of Wisconsin and other campuses. The Texas bill, so vital that Gov. Rick Perry declared it emergency legislation, would also reject student IDs, but would allow anyone with a handgun license to vote.


....Then there are states that want to suppress the college vote because it's "too liberal."

In states, parties clash over voting laws that would affect college students, others


Quote :
"Voting as a liberal. That's what kids do," he added, his comments taped by a state Democratic Party staffer and posted on YouTube. Students lack "life experience," and "they just vote their feelings."

New Hampshire House Republicans are pushing for new laws that would prohibit many college students from voting in the state - and effectively keep some from voting at all.

One bill would permit students to vote in their college towns only if they or their parents had previously established permanent residency there - requiring all others to vote in the states or other New Hampshire towns they come from.


Isn't that special?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/29/2011, 4:08 pm

Scorpion wrote:
KarenT wrote:
I don't understand what the problem is. If you don't have a valid ID, there are so many things you can't do - travel by air, buy alcohol, etc. I don't think it's that hard to get one.

Yeah, well what about this part?

Quote :
The Wisconsin bill refuses to recognize college photo ID cards, even if they are issued by a state university, thus cutting off many students at the University of Wisconsin and other campuses. The Texas bill, so vital that Gov. Rick Perry declared it emergency legislation, would also reject student IDs, but would allow anyone with a handgun license to vote.


....Then there are states that want to suppress the college vote because it's "too liberal."

In states, parties clash over voting laws that would affect college students, others


Quote :
"Voting as a liberal. That's what kids do," he added, his comments taped by a state Democratic Party staffer and posted on YouTube. Students lack "life experience," and "they just vote their feelings."

New Hampshire House Republicans are pushing for new laws that would prohibit many college students from voting in the state - and effectively keep some from voting at all.

One bill would permit students to vote in their college towns only if they or their parents had previously established permanent residency there - requiring all others to vote in the states or other New Hampshire towns they come from.


Isn't that special?
I can’t swear how thoroughly a student’s particulars are vetted when he or she obtains a college ID, but I would be willing to bet that a handgun license holder has had his or her particulars vetted much more thoroughly than that of the student.
The Wisconsin bill is not ’cutting off’ college students. They can still vote – they just have to follow the same procedures as anyone else, that’s all. It shouldn't be too difficult for someone with the requisite intelligence to be accepted into a university to be able to master the Herculean task of obtaining an ID card, should it?
And the part about students not being able to vote in their college town – so what? Have they never heard of an absentee ballot? It is a really, really, really, really simple and painless process, as I can attest to from first-hand experience. It's actually less hassle than physically going to the polling place.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/29/2011, 4:36 pm

happy jack wrote:
And the part about students not being able to vote in their college town – so what? Have they never heard of an absentee ballot? It is a really, really, really, really simple and painless process, as I can attest to from first-hand experience. It's actually less hassle than physically going to the polling place.

Sure. I've voted absentee myself. But that was right before the election. You're talking about forcing the college students to vote a long time. perhaps months before the elections. Why should students be forced to make up their minds before everyone else does? What if they don't go home at all after August or September? Are you saying that we should deny them voting rights?

happy jack wrote:
I can’t swear how thoroughly a student’s particulars are vetted when he or she obtains a college ID, but I would be willing to bet that a handgun license holder has had his or her particulars vetted much more thoroughly than that of the student.

Vetted? What "particulars?" are you talking about? Universities don't just give away student IDs to anyone, you know. The proposal to deny "foolish" students their right to vote at school is nothing more than a cheap political trick to try and suppress the voting in college towns. It's a bullshit political ploy, no matter how you try to spin it.

I gotta tell ya, it looks like the Republican are trying to rig the 2012 election because they know that they can't beat Obama fair and square to me.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/29/2011, 5:43 pm

Scorpion wrote:

I gotta tell ya, it looks like the Republican are trying to rig the 2012 election because they know that they can't beat Obama fair and square to me.
Rig it how?
Like they rigged the 2000 election with those incredibly complicated butterfly ballots?
Or like they rigged the 2004 elections with Teresa Heinz Kerry's 'mother machines'?
I don't see how requiring voters of all political persuasions to follow the same rules is 'rigging' an election.
Quit whining and put up a good candidate.
That is how you win an election.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/29/2011, 10:30 pm

An analysis by the North Carolina State Board of Elections showed that any new law requiring a state-issued ID could be problematic for large numbers of voters, particularly African Americans, whose turnout in 2008 helped Obama win the state.
Blacks account for about one-fifth of the North Carolina electorate but are a larger share - 27 percent - of the approximately 1 million voters who may lack a state-issued ID or whose names do not exactly match the Division of Motor Vehicles database. The analysis found about 556,000 voters with no record of an ID issued by the DMV.


And whose responsibility is it to make sure that blacks have a valid ID?
Is it the responsibility of the Republicans?
Or is it the responsibility of the blacks?
I think somebody needs to grow up.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 9:31 am

Agreed, Jack (wow, have I ever said that before?!?!?!?)
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 10:31 am

Yeah. Well I specifically wanted to discuss the impact on college students before expanding the discussion to other groups. We can get around to discussing those other groups later, if that's OK with you, Jack. Do you have any comment on the questions that I asked in my prior post?

Scorpion wrote:
You're talking about forcing the college students to vote a long time. perhaps months before the elections. Why should students be forced to make up their minds before everyone else does? What if they don't go home at all after August or September? Are you saying that we should deny them voting rights?

happy jack wrote:
I can’t swear how thoroughly a student’s particulars are vetted when he or she obtains a college ID, but I would be willing to bet that a handgun license holder has had his or her particulars vetted much more thoroughly than that of the student.

Vetted? What "particulars?" are you talking about? Universities don't just give away student IDs to anyone, you know. The proposal to deny "foolish" students their right to vote at school is nothing more than a cheap political trick to try and suppress the voting in college towns.


For a real life example of how this can affect the outcome of an election, just take a look at the numbers from 2004 in Wisconsin...(from the WaPo article referenced in my prior post)

Quote :
Though Obama won the state easily in 2008, strategists in both parties expect his reelection contest to be much closer. In 2004, the Democratic nominee, Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), won there by just 11,000 votes, a margin easily covered just by the 17,000 out-of-state students who attend the University of Wisconsin's campus in Madison.

So just the votes from one college campus can change the outcome of an election. So again, what is the justification for requiring that college students have to jump through hoops in order to vote, when everyone else does not?











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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 10:32 am

KarenT wrote:
Agreed, Jack (wow, have I ever said that before?!?!?!?)
There's a first time for everything, Karent. Smile

I just feel that it's high time to acknowledge that if blacks (or college students, or anyone else, for that matter) want to see their candidate of choice in the White House or in any other public office, then it is up to them to get off their collective asses, live up to their civic responsibility, and do what it takes to make themselves eligible to vote.
I have done it, and just about everyone I know has done it.
All members of my family have kept themselves eligible to vote in every election, regardless of residency relocations.
It is not difficult.
It is not the least bit difficult, and I'm not demanding that anyone else do any more than I have done to remain eligible to vote.
I'm really, really tired of these whiners.
And I'm tired of the whiners blaming everyone but themselves for their own irresponsibility and laziness.
And I'm tired of those who make excuses for the whiners.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 10:53 am

[quote="Scorpion"]Yeah. Well I specifically wanted to discuss the impact on college students before expanding the discussion to other groups. We can get around to discussing those other groups later, if that's OK with you, Jack. Do you have any comment on the questions that I asked in my prior post?

Scorpion wrote:
You're talking about forcing the college students to vote a long time. perhaps months before the elections. Why should students be forced to make up their minds before everyone else does? What if they don't go home at all after August or September? Are you saying that we should deny them voting rights?
I’m not quite sure what you are talking about here. My son was able to vote by absentee ballot in mid-October before a November election. It was a simple matter of an envelope, a stamp, and a minute touch of responsibility.

Scorpion wrote:

happy jack wrote:
I can’t swear how thoroughly a student’s particulars are vetted when he or she obtains a college ID, but I would be willing to bet that a handgun license holder has had his or her particulars vetted much more thoroughly than that of the student.

Vetted? What "particulars?" are you talking about? Universities don't just give away student IDs to anyone, you know. The proposal to deny "foolish" students their right to vote at school is nothing more than a cheap political trick to try and suppress the voting in college towns.

I meant that the process of obtaining a handgun license is more stringent than the process of obtaining a student ID. An applicant for a handgun license goes through a virtual anal exam by, at the very least, two law enforcement agencies, including residency and criminal background checks. Allowing a handgun license to be used as a valid ID pretty much ensures that all data related to the person in question is correct. I don’t know if that can be said for a college ID.


Scorpion wrote:

For a real life example of how this can affect the outcome of an election, just take a look at the numbers from 2004 in Wisconsin...(from the WaPo article referenced in my prior post)

Quote :
Though Obama won the state easily in 2008, strategists in both parties expect his reelection contest to be much closer. In 2004, the Democratic nominee, Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), won there by just 11,000 votes, a margin easily covered just by the 17,000 out-of-state students who attend the University of Wisconsin's campus in Madison.
So just the votes from one college campus can change the outcome of an election. So again, what is the justification for requiring that college students have to jump through hoops in order to vote, when everyone else does not?
You are talking about a national election. If they used an absentee ballot, they would still be eligible to vote for the very same candidate. The vote itself may be attributed to another state, but it is still a valid vote for the candidate of their choice. Where is the problem?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 10:59 am

Scorpion wrote:

Quote :
a margin easily covered just by the 17,000 out-of-state students who attend the University of Wisconsin's campus in Madison.[/b]

Kind of sounds like you are the one who wants to rig elections by clumping likely Democrat voters into one nice, convenient little electoral bloc, rather than allowing them to cast their votes in the places where they hold true and more permanent residence.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 11:53 am

[quote="Scorpion"]

....Then there are states that want to suppress the college vote because it's "too liberal."


Quote :
"Voting as a liberal. That's what kids do," he added, his comments taped by a state Democratic Party staffer and posted on YouTube. Students lack "life experience," and "they just vote their feelings."

Come on, Scorpion - that's an offhand comment by one individual, not something that's being sanctioned by the state and written into the law.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 12:24 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

Quote :
a margin easily covered just by the 17,000 out-of-state students who attend the University of Wisconsin's campus in Madison.[/b]

Kind of sounds like you are the one who wants to rig elections by clumping likely Democrat voters into one nice, convenient little electoral bloc, rather than allowing them to cast their votes in the places where they hold true and more permanent residence.

I see. So you're admitting that this is the real reason why the Republicans want to change the laws regarding college students. College students have been able to vote on campus for a long, long time. So why change the law now? There should always be a compelling reason to change election laws.

If you're saying that breaking up "convenient little electoral blocs" is the "compelling reason" for the change, at least I can give you points for honesty. But if this is the reason, then would the Republicans change the laws if the colleges provided a "convenient little electoral bloc" that was reliably Republican? I think that we both know the answer to that question, don't we?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   4/30/2011, 10:57 pm

Scorpion wrote:

I see. So you're admitting that this is the real reason why the Republicans want to change the laws regarding college students.

Say what?


Scorpion wrote:

If you're saying that breaking up "convenient little electoral blocs" is the "compelling reason" for the change, at least I can give you points for honesty. But if this is the reason, then would the Republicans change the laws if the colleges provided a "convenient little electoral bloc" that was reliably Republican? I think that we both know the answer to that question, don't we?

I’d be happy if everyone, regardless of political affiliation, voted in the district where they have established permanent residency and where they have a vested interest, and not a transient interest. As it is now, 17,000 out-of-staters have the luxury of voting in someone else’s district, then moving away and leaving the actual residents to deal with the consequences of their votes.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/1/2011, 12:46 pm

happy jack wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

I see. So you're admitting that this is the real reason why the Republicans want to change the laws regarding college students.

Say what?

Scorpion wrote:

If you're saying that breaking up "convenient little electoral blocs" is the "compelling reason" for the change, at least I can give you points for honesty. But if this is the reason, then would the Republicans change the laws if the colleges provided a "convenient little electoral bloc" that was reliably Republican? I think that we both know the answer to that question, don't we?

I’d be happy if everyone, regardless of political affiliation, voted in the district where they have established permanent residency and where they have a vested interest, and not a transient interest. As it is now, 17,000 out-of-staters have the luxury of voting in someone else’s district, then moving away and leaving the actual residents to deal with the consequences of their votes.

College students aren't even eligible to vote before they are 18. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that they have a significant "vested interest" in their "home state." In fact, I would argue that in practical terms, that college students change their residency when they move to the campus. I hardly think that a person who spends 9 months or more on campus every year, in many cases for 4 years or more, can be characterized as a "transient."



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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/1/2011, 12:55 pm

Scorpion wrote:
In fact, I would argue that in practical terms, that college students change their residency when they move to the campus. I hardly think that a person who spends 9 months or more on campus every year, in many cases for 4 years or more, can be characterized as a "transient."
I was going to point that out earlier. My nephew attends IU in Bloomington. This year he has a summer job there,so in essence he's a full time resident despite the fact that he hails from Wrigleyville in Chicago.

These latest attempts by the R's is just more of their continuing efforts to marginalize and disenfranchise the poor,the young or anyone that would reliably vote Democratic. They got away with it when they took down ACORN and all that did was encourage them to expand their operations.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/1/2011, 3:36 pm

Voter fraud is just another nonexistent boogey man. There's been numerous studies on the topic, and none have ever found an organized attempt to sway an election; certainly none large enough to do so. The sheer number of people involved makes it untenable for the same reason massive conspiracy theories are nonsense; every additional person involved is just one more person that can talk and ruin it for everyone. Tens of thousands of people would have to be involved, virtually ensuring one guy drunk will start blabbing to his friends after. There's also no way to ensure the fraudulent voters vote the way they're actually supposed to.

The whole thing's just silly.

The danger of fraud during elections continues to be from those running the elections themselves: running the computers, doing the counting, etc.
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Robin Banks

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/1/2011, 8:59 pm

There have been numerous studies that indicate that people who spout off about studies are almost always full of hot air and are really boring at parties.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/2/2011, 9:54 am

97% of statistics are made up anyway.
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Robin Banks

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/2/2011, 10:39 am

Do you have a study that supports your statistics?
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/2/2011, 3:17 pm

Scorpion wrote:
I hardly think that a person who spends 9 months or more on campus every year, in many cases for 4 years or more, can be characterized as a "transient."

How many students do you know who take up permanent residence in the town where they once attended college?
What happens after 4 years?
They move out - that's what happens.
And that is pretty much the definition of transient.
Why should the students, as temporary residents in a college town, be allowed to dictate permanent changes to the town?
In a more extreme case, if a local candidate decides to run on a platform of allowing bars to be open until 4 a.m., allowing open liquor in the streets, an abolition of noise ordinances, etc., he has an instant base of 17,000 voters. And when these self-serving voters move out after their 4 years are up, the townspeople are left to deal with the fallout.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/2/2011, 3:23 pm

Robin Banks wrote:
Do you have a study that supports your statistics?
Good luck getting an answer to that one.
Studies have shown that those who have a study to support their statistics will, 94% of the time, refuse to produce it.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/2/2011, 3:29 pm

happy jack wrote:

Why should the students, as temporary residents in a college town, be allowed to dictate permanent changes to the town?
]
They're not. That's why elections are held on a regular basis.
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: Voter Identification   5/2/2011, 3:36 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
happy jack wrote:

Why should the students, as temporary residents in a college town, be allowed to dictate permanent changes to the town?
]
They're not. That's why elections are held on a regular basis.
Yes, and as long as the college exists, there will always be a voting base comprised of transients. The faces may change from election to election, but the mentality does not. They will vote for whatever serves their own interest for the next four years. After that, it becomes someone else's headache.
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