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 Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?

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KarenT



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PostSubject: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   11/7/2010, 4:19 pm

I think most of the objections come from old officers. I'm thinking the younger ones are used to handling diversity in real life.



Defense Secretary Robert Gates is encouraging Congress to act before year's end to repeal the ban on gays serving openly in the military. It's a position shared by his boss, the president.

But his new Marine commandant thinks otherwise and the Senate has not yet taken action, setting up yet another hurdle for gay activists who see their window quickly closing. After Tuesday's elections that saw Republicans chip away at Democrats' majority in the Senate and wrest the House from their control, their hopes for ending the 17-year-old law have dimmed.

"I would like to see the repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell,' but I'm not sure what the prospects for that are and we'll just have to see," Gates told reporters traveling with him to Australia this weekend.

Gates said he would prefer Congress act after the Pentagon releases its study of how repeal would be implemented, which is due Dec. 1.

That goal, though, lacks to backing of the Marine Corps commandant at a moment the country is fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"This is not a social thing. This is combat effectiveness," Gen. James Amos said.

That hesitation could be enough to give senators permission not to act, activists fear.

The House has passed legislation repealing "don't ask, don't tell," but it has not yet seen a vote in the full Senate, where Democrats don't have the votes to overcome a Republican filibuster. Democratic leaders says they are trying to reach a deal across the aisle now that Election Day has passed.

"The Senate should call up the defense bill reported out of committee and pass it before it goes home for the year," said Aubrey Sarvis, executive director of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. "If the president, Majority Leader Reid, Secretary Gates and a handful of Republican senators are committed to passing the comprehensive defense bill, there is ample time to do so."

Gay activists worry the repeal could be stripped from the bill that funds the Pentagon.

"Any talk about a watered down defense bill, whereby the 'don't ask' revisions would be stripped out, is unacceptable and offensive to the gay and lesbian service members who risk their lives everyday," said Sarvis, whose organization provides legal services for gays and lesbians who face discharge.

Obama on Wednesday also said he wanted a repeal before the new Congress arrives.

"This should not be a partisan issue," he said. "You've got a sizable portion of the American people squarely behind the notion that folks who are willing to serve on our behalf should be treated fairly and equally."

A Gallup poll in May found 70 percent of American favor allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly.

The legislative countdown comes as a parallel effort to end the ban continues in court.

Last month, the Pentagon was forced to lift its ban on openly serving gays for eight days after a federal judge in California ordered the military to do so. The Justice Department has appealed, and a federal appeals court granted a temporary stay of the injunction.

The Pentagon, meanwhile, is in the midst of a study of how it would implement a repeal should Congress act. Leaders of that effort have said a hasty pace and inadequate protections for gay and lesbian military members could be a disaster.

The White House had hoped lawmakers would delay action until the Pentagon had completed its study so fellow Democrats would not face criticism that they moved too quickly or too far ahead of public opinion in this election year. House Democrats would not wait. Administration officials joined the negotiations to make certain a repeal was not done too quickly.

Obama, Gates and Adm. Michael Mullen _ the top uniformed military official in the country _ have spoken in favor of repeal but have emphasized that it must be paced. The White House's favored plan could give the Pentagon years to implement the repeal process and would require the approval of Obama, Gates and Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

In a speech last year at the Army War College, Gates noted that the 1948 executive order for racial integration took five years to implement.

"I'm not saying that's a model for this, but I'm saying that I believe this is something that needs to be done very, very carefully," he told the audience.

"Don't ask, don't tell" was imposed by a 1993 law intended as a compromise between President Bill Clinton, who wanted to lift the ban on gays entirely, and a reluctant Congress and military that said doing so would threaten order.

Under the policy, the military can't ask recruits their sexual orientation. In turn, service members can't say they are gay or bisexual, engage in homosexual activity or marry a member of the same sex.

Between 1997 and 2008, the Defense Department discharged more than 10,500 service members for violating the policy.

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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   11/7/2010, 7:13 pm

I've never understood the logic behind it.

"We've got the best fighting force in the world! Until they find out the guy next to 'em is gay. Then they'll completely loose their shit, wet themselves, stab their superior officers, and run off the battlefield sobbing for their mother and Jesus. Great soldiers and homophobic bigots, too!"

That's pretty much the argument, isn't? That it will "threaten order" because the bigots that must be in their ranks won't keep their shit together? The whole thing is such a ridiculous insult to our troops.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   11/7/2010, 7:35 pm

My dad was in the Navy in WWII and in the Army in Korea. He never understood the problem as the big wigs put it.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 10:09 am

First of all, why would anyone need to tell or ask? It's obvious and easy to spot a gay person. They've been serving throughout all the wars.

Calling attention to it is like saying, "Hey, by the way Bud, I'm straight in case ya need to know."

It's really ridiculous when you think of the old saying..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

These career politicians need to tackle some real problems. Instead they bring up this, the food needing to be served in schools, no smoking crap, etc.

Why can't they solve real problems like cut the salary of politicians...make them pay into their own retirement fund, or pay social security..and cut out the overblown staffing. That would cut down on the deficit.

Throw people like Charlie Rangler and the likes in jail for avoiding taxes...instead they get a free pass.

Quit sending foreign aid to other countries. We're worse off than some of them.

Being gay or whatever, who gives a hoot.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 10:11 am

Karen, your hubby is in the service. What does he say about it? (If you don't mind answering.)
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 10:59 am

He was in Afghanistan as a civilian - didn't care which way his roommate swung.
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chuckmo48

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 2:31 pm

I really don't see a problem either...70% of the servicemen didn't care. Ol' gramps McCain flips again...1st he said he would wait for the armed forces committee to make a recommendation and when they did he is now going against it...Oh so Typical from a guy I once would of voted for president to now a tool that is a total caricature.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 3:28 pm

I really hate McCain right now. As a military man himself he should know better than to rally to the defense of the few remaining bigots in our military. He really is just a slimy partisan hack, isn't he?
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 6:00 pm

chuckmo48 wrote:
I really don't see a problem either...70% of the servicemen didn't care. Ol' gramps McCain flips again...1st he said he would wait for the armed forces committee to make a recommendation and when they did he is now going against it...Oh so Typical from a guy I once would of voted for president to now a tool that is a total caricature.

McCain has out served his time. We have teens, 20 yr old's fighting. We have women fighting. I think I know enough about - well, from being around the gays...they don't flaunt it...especially when it comes to serving their country.

I am more concerned about the gang-bangers going there just to get experienced and come back home to recruit other gang-bangers'.

Did anyone read about the kid in Mexico that was actually an American born citizen that was trained as a sniper and killed in Mexico?

Oh I am more concerned about closing the borders and especially between Mexico and the USA. Yet our POTUS passed a 4.3 billion pass to feed kids in school a nutritious meal so they don't add to the deficit.

You can feed the kid a honkey dorey lunch and breakfast...but of parents eat crap at night, what difference is that gonna make?

Priorities are so messed up in our world, our USA that a kid eating a healthy meal at school takes priority and is useless. They cover that up with the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".

I think I know enough about gay people that if they were to serve, they wouldn't even mention what their sexual orientation is. It doesn't apply. It's not like they are gonna dress up and perform and imitate being the opposite sex.
t
They join the military for the same reason straight people do. You don't see straight soldiers going around announcing they are straight for the same reason you don't see gay people announcing it.

Bunch of b.s. from the over-indulged congress that never served a day in the service.

McCain needs to retire and spend what time he has left with his Barbie Doll.

Obama needs to stick to his guns and focus on real issues...and forget that Hawaiian vacation this winter. He's out of office more than in, and is not tackling real issues. Forget the golf, basketball and vacations.

Get in the OVAL office and work..set an example. I am so sick of him playing more than working, so who can take him seriously?
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 6:10 pm

UR - don't knock school lunches. Sometimes it's the only nutrition the kid gets all day. Yes, I know, I just hijacked my own thread.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/4/2010, 6:46 pm

In a way, you are very correct. My point is...I ate baloney sandwiches, scrambled eggs with ketchup, whatever we froze in the freezer the night before, plus fruit, etc., the sandwiches we made. It didn't mean we didn't grow our own vegetables or get a healthy meal at home.

Back in those days it was a Catholic school free...because the whole town were devotees of the Catholic church. I remember there was a cafeteria, but my parents couldn't afford the bus or cafeteria. At the time it was four of us kids...my mom drove us during the winter, but during the spring or fall, we walked.

I remember one day I met a classmate, sitting next to her with no lunch. I had baloney and hungry as I was, I gave her my half of sandwich. Turned out she was a distant cousin who had to walk the mile of railroad tracks to gain access to her huge, dilapidated house. There was food in the house, but her father committed suicide, and we thus became friends after that. I remember packing extra sandwiches for her.

Point is...I may have taken scrambled eggs with ketchup or frozen baloney sandwiches...for lunch. But we ate so well on every dinnner and breakfast and gatherings in our home was every weekend or day. My gram had a garden, my dad, my uncles and aunts in Missouri. We had every Sunday, bacon, homemade sausage, and everything out of the gardens to eat. My mom was a canner and my dad taught us even how to plant peanuts.

I guess you can't judge a family by what the kid eats at school. We did the best we could in a non-air-conditioned, no refrigerator in the school, and we bought peanut butter by the gallon.

I feel the parents should provide a breakfast. Lunch is a different story, perhaps, but I feel the way Sarah Palin does, the parent who delivers a child in this world should be prepared to provide for them. This isn't 1960. We didn't have food stamps. We couldn't afford the price for lunch, so the few privileged who had both parents successful frequented the cafeteria and u can imagine the food thrown out. I remember taking the 2 cents given for milk, saving it, going to the candy store (Ben Franklin) and hiking home hungry not telling my mom I gave my lunch away.

I really believe people are suffering, but my goodness, I never made all that much in my life while raising the kids, but I made sure they got fed good...did their homework, and in bed by 9 p.m.

There is no excuse for a family not to provide a lunch for their children if they are receiving food stamps. That is my argument.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/5/2010, 3:18 pm

Ideally, I believe like you do - if you have kids, be prepared to provide for them. Realistically, too many families don't even have milk at home. I would prefer that the kids get some nutrition at school instead of suffering. I'm glad you had an extended family. Not all kids are so lucky - a lot don't even have two stable parents.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/22/2010, 10:38 pm

:rolfcry: Ya gotta love this headline..... Obama Signs GOP's Worst Nightmare

The worst nightmare of the religious right is coming true, as President Obama signs the repeal of “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” into law, and the government officially gets out of the homophobia business.
Republicans, of course, were desperately trying to stop The Dreaded Gay right up until the very last minute.
===============================
Sen. Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) was equally ebullient.
Quote :
"This was by far the most productive Congress in American history, and the lame-duck session we're finishing was the most productive of its kind,"
Not exactly what the righties were expecting :rolfcry:


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sparks



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/23/2010, 5:57 am

Don't ask,don't tell is a major accomplishment by the Obama administration. One of the most interesting things about the passage of the bill is that the conservatives are requiring that the law's impact on the armed forces is going to be monitored. They will look at stats like recruitment rates,retention rates,sexual assaults,etc. The reason the conservatives added the monitoring language is to create a way to restore the policy in the future. However, if the stats show the military was improved by allowing gays to serve, it will pave the way for futures civil rights gains. I think it is very significant that one of our country's most powerful institutions is going to start teaching it's soldiers to accept the rights of gays. This is a major Progressive victory.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/23/2010, 11:47 am

Yeah, well it's been an awesome "lame duck" session, that's for sure.

Found a short article from The Hill that was interesting...

Graham: GOP to blame for 'capitulation ... of dramatic proportions' in lame-duck

Quote :
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) lashed out at fellow Republicans Tuesday for a "capitulation ... of dramatic proportions" to Democrats and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) in the lame-duck Congress.

Graham said Republicans have no one to blame but themselves for allowing ratification of the New START Treaty and other legislation in the period before new lawmakers are sworn in in January.

"When it's all going to be said and done, Harry Reid has eaten our lunch," Graham said on Fox News radio. "This has been a capitulation in two weeks of dramatic proportions of policies that wouldn't have passed in the new Congress."

I thought it was particularly shameful that the Republicans tried to prevent health benefits for the heroes of 9/11.

They were clearly against ratifying the New Start Treaty simply to deny the President a "victory." It was clear from the debate that they could not come up with a valid reason for not ratifying the treaty. I'm really glad that it's done. There are few things more important than reducing the threat of nuclear weapons. Holding up this treaty for political reasons was really disgusting.

The repeal of DADT was long overdue. McCain tried every trick in the book to prevent the repeal, but he failed. It was good to see.

I wasn't real happy with parts of the "tax deal," but I honestly believe that it was the best deal that the President could get. It must have been a bitter pill for the GOP to approve the unemployment benefit extension and the new economic stimulus funding that was included n the package. This will undoubtedly help the economy.



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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/23/2010, 1:59 pm

Scorpion wrote:

I wasn't real happy with parts of the "tax deal," but I honestly believe that it was the best deal that the President could get. It must have been a bitter pill for the GOP to approve the unemployment benefit extension and the new economic stimulus funding that was included n the package. This will undoubtedly help the economy.
I wasn't happy either,especially with the lowering of the payroll tax. But now that I've had a little time to think about it we may be able to really nail the GOP on their plans to derail Social Security.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/23/2010, 2:51 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Scorpion wrote:

I wasn't real happy with parts of the "tax deal," but I honestly believe that it was the best deal that the President could get. It must have been a bitter pill for the GOP to approve the unemployment benefit extension and the new economic stimulus funding that was included n the package. This will undoubtedly help the economy.
I wasn't happy either,especially with the lowering of the payroll tax. But now that I've had a little time to think about it we may be able to really nail the GOP on their plans to derail Social Security.

Really? Why would you be against a one year reduction of the "payroll tax?" If it's because you fear that Social Security will somehow be put in jeopardy by it, I wouldn't worry about it. We are going to need some kind of changes to the program in order to keep it solvent, in any case.

I used to be against raising the cap on the amount of income subject to the Social Security tax, but my thinking on that has evolved over the last few years. I now think that removing the cap on higher incomes would be an effective method to ensure the viability of the program. It's certainly preferable to reducing benefits.

I'd also prefer to see "means testing" to determine the amount of benefits that seniors receive, but I know that idea is probably controversial. Still, when you think about it, do seniors raking in hundreds of thousands in income really need a monthly check?

Personally, my main objections to the tax deal were the reduction in the estate tax (which benefits only about 3/10s of 1%) and the continuation of the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans. But I expect that both of these will be on the table in 2012. I don't think that Americans are going to want to see these tax breaks for the wealthy continue indefinitely.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/23/2010, 5:52 pm

Scorpion wrote:

Really? Why would you be against a one year reduction of the "payroll tax?" If it's because you fear that Social Security will somehow be put in jeopardy by it, I wouldn't worry about it. We are going to need some kind of changes to the program in order to keep it solvent, in any case.
I just don't see the wisdom to cut the tax that funds SS while giving while giving billions in tax breaks to people earning over a million a year.
Quote :
I used to be against raising the cap on the amount of income subject to the Social Security tax, but my thinking on that has evolved over the last few years. I now think that removing the cap on higher incomes would be an effective method to ensure the viability of the program. It's certainly preferable to reducing benefits.
It's also the fair thing to do. Lower income workers end up paying a much bigger percentage of their earnings vs those who earn a lot more.
Quote :
I'd also prefer to see "means testing" to determine the amount of benefits that seniors receive, but I know that idea is probably controversial. Still, when you think about it, do seniors raking in hundreds of thousands in income really need a monthly check?
I totally agree.

Quote :
Personally, my main objections to the tax deal were the reduction in the estate tax (which benefits only about 3/10s of 1%) and the continuation of the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans. But I expect that both of these will be on the table in 2012. I don't think that Americans are going to want to see these tax breaks for the wealthy continue indefinitely.
It certainly sets up a winning scenario where Obama will ask the question "Do you think these Tax cuts for the super rich should be extended" vs the GOP candidate that will have to explain why unfunded tax cuts for the rich should be continued.
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/28/2010, 3:09 pm

My whole family the brothers, my father were marines.

My uncle Frank kept a forbidden journal he wrote in a journal, being the first paramedic to enter WWI...the Nazi camp...he was in the Army. He walked for weeks with his comrades in below zero weather eating snakes, etc. to survive.

My parents have that journal which would be valuable translated in English of his whole life serving in WWI.

My other uncles were in the army, navy, etc.

My brother, served in Viet Nam. He was a Marine...and came down with pneumonia while marching. The other Marines had to keep marching over him, stepping or not in line. Instead of sympathy and rushing him to the hospital after being tramped on, the Sgt. took him behind a shed and beat the living shitz out of him, calling him the "PUS-EE" word...and he spent three weeks in the hospital after that.

I was quite surprised by his response...when I asked his feelings about that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell..."

He said,

"Can you just imagine two gays walking down as soldiers holding hands? Can you imagine if their lover got shot in a foxhole?"

Better off not saying, "Ask and Tell".

That's all he said, except, "It will be disasterous!" The enemies will come out full force knowing the U.S. endorses this, and if they think they have a "religious" war now...wait and see what happens after this."

I think he's right...why do people have to really expose their sexual orientation? Why? I am not against gays, I just don't understand why you have to announce to the world what "HOLE" you use.

I guess his reasoning is, that though gays have served, some will think it's ok to advertise, once this passes.


Last edited by UrRight on 12/28/2010, 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Left out a sentence. Whoo, whoo, whoo!!!!!)
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UrRight



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/28/2010, 3:29 pm

I'm going to be spending time with my dad by Saturday. Getting worse...gonna ask his opinion. Which should be valuable. He stayed behind after WWII voluntarily for six months....he shot a Jap in a fox hole to save his own life.

He returned with sharpel in his leg and foot...never bothered asking to be rewarded..but it would make for a good opinion if I ask him to at least comment on that.

He did tell me (in the past), this isn't the kind of war we fought. This is a religious war...and political war on oil. "There is no comparison". I took it to be a "fruitless war".
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/28/2010, 4:11 pm

UrRight wrote:

I was quite surprised by his response...when I asked his feelings about that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell..."

He said,

"Can you just imagine two gays walking down as soldiers holding hands? Can you imagine if their lover got shot in a foxhole?"

Better off not saying, "Ask and Tell".

That's all he said, except, "It will be disasterous!" The enemies will come out full force knowing the U.S. endorses this, and if they think they have a "religious" war now...wait and see what happens after this."
Except that the behavior you describe isn't going to happen. Have their ever been reports of male & female hetero soldiers holding hands while on duty? Ever hear of it in employment situations like Police or Fire Departments? They also have gay members.


Quote :
I think he's right...why do people have to really expose their sexual orientation? Why? I am not against gays, I just don't understand why you have to announce to the world what "HOLE" you use.
That's simply your own jaundiced interpretation.

Quote :
I guess his reasoning is, that though gays have served, some will think it's ok to advertise, once this passes.
That's not going to happen. You think they're going to have military gay pride parades? Rolling Eyes All gays want is to be treated equally and enjoy the same civil rights as others..
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   12/30/2010, 7:32 pm

True, Artie.

UR - hope your dad is doing OK now.
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paul87920

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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   1/5/2011, 5:55 am

UrRight wrote:
"Can you just imagine two gays walking down as soldiers holding hands? Can you imagine if their lover got shot in a foxhole?"

Better off not saying, "Ask and Tell".

That's all he said, except, "It will be disasterous!" The enemies will come out full force knowing the U.S. endorses this, and if they think they have a "religious" war now...wait and see what happens after this."

I think he's right...why do people have to really expose their sexual orientation? Why? I am not against gays, I just don't understand why you have to announce to the world what "HOLE" you use.

I find this incredibly ignorant. Let me break it down for you.

1) Holding hands? Lover in the foxhole? What makes you think that LGBT men and women aren't going to be held to the same standards that their heterosexual colleagues are?

2) What makes you think enemies will come out in full force? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gays_in_the_military The only countries in the world that don't allow LGBT people into the military are a few Asian countries, and most of the Middle East. Hell Israel allows LGBT people into their ranks and they're still standing strong.

3) It's not about announcing "which hole you use". Did you ever stop to think that LGBT individuals might want to be able to send or receive a letter from their significant other? Maybe they'd like to call when they get the opportunity to do so. And they'd like to do those things without fear of being discharged. Also I have quite a few friends in the military with a Facebook page. Maybe they'd like to have that Facebook to keep in contact with friends and family without fear of being ousted.
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KarenT



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PostSubject: Re: Don't Ask, Don't Tell - comments from here?   1/5/2011, 7:54 am

Can't see anything on page 2 - anyone else?
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