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 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention

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PostSubject: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/2/2010, 4:05 am

This from ABC News Tampa, FL. The FL legislature passed a resolution demanding the Federal government present a balanced budget every year. It was reported that already 20 states are in the process of passing such a measure and to call for a Constitutional amendment to that effect by Constitutional Convention - thus forcing Congress by Amendment law to live within our means just as states must do. 34 states must act for it to become a reality.

Well it's about time.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/2/2010, 7:38 am

GOP hypocrisy at it's finest.....

After taking billions of dollars in federal economic stimulus money to balance the state budget last year, Senate President Jeff Atwater and House Speaker Larry Cretul along with other GOP lawmakers are demanding that the federal government balance its budget to put an end to the escalating federal deficit now surpassing $12 trillion.

Atwater and his cadre want the feds to balance the nation’s budget as Florida lawmakers are constitutionally required to do in the Sunshine State.

But that didn’t stop the legislature under Atwater and Cretul from accepting at least $12 billion in federal stimulus money - more than $3 billion used to balance this year’s Florida budget and nearly another $6 billion plugged into next year’s. That money helped add to the nation’s rising debt.


“It’s a gaping inconsistency to take that money happily to fill giant holes in our budget and then turn around and criticize the very people who gave you the cash,” said Rep. Keith Fitzgerald, D-Sarasota.
http://www.postonpolitics.com/2010/03/house-senate-leaders-demand-balanced-federal-budget/
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/2/2010, 3:05 pm

Mirage wrote:
This from ABC News Tampa, FL. The FL legislature passed a resolution demanding the Federal government present a balanced budget every year. It was reported that already 20 states are in the process of passing such a measure and to call for a Constitutional amendment to that effect by Constitutional Convention - thus forcing Congress by Amendment law to live within our means just as states must do. 34 states must act for it to become a reality.

Well it's about time.

It's about time for what? We've been down this road before. Back in the 80's we were only 2 states away from a Constitutional Convention... for exactly the same reason.

From 1984....

CON CON: Playing Russian Roulette with the Constitution


Quote :
Thirty-two state legislatures have passed resolutions calling for a Constitutional Convention to consider a Balanced Budget Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. A Balanced Budget Amendment is a desirable goal. But a good end does not justify a bad means, and Con Con would be a very bad and dangerous means.

A decade ago, when those supporting a Balanced Budget Amendment began their effort to pass Con Con resolutions in State Legislatures, it seemed a useful educational device. It dramatized the urgency of our horrendous Federal fiscal problems. It made a "Statement" that the American people are very serious about our demand for a Balanced Budget Amendment.

But now that our nation is only two states short of the actual call for a Con Con, it's time to stop dangerous bluffing about the Constitution and talk about risks and realities. If 34 states (2/3rds of the 50 states) pass resolutions calling for Con Con, the obligation to call one is mandatory on Congress. The roller-coaster ride will have started, and there will be no way to get off.

It's noteworthy that I find myself providing a quote from the Eagle Forum, but they were correct, and we're probably lucky that cooler heads prevailed.

I'm not against a balanced budget, in principle. I just don't think that a Constitutional Convention is the way to make that happen.

Hell, I don't even know if a requirement for a balanced budget is even feasible at the Federal level. What about defense spending? Are you willing to put the nation at risk during a war? What about emergency assistance for victims of natural disasters in our country? Are you prepared to tell the victims that they're screwed?

I agree that running annual deficits indefinitely is unsustainable, but sometimes spending is absolutely necessary, especially during a severe recession like we're experiencing today.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/2/2010, 10:02 pm

OK you bring up "what if" but that's addressed very simply - you cut spending somewhere next year to cover it. Obviously you can only set aside so much money for an unknown rainy day situation. And while of course I want US citizens aided in a natural disaster perhaps we do need to examine how much foreign relief we are willing to commit to. Looks like we will basically be rebuilding Haiti. I have no issue with the private donations but we still don't know how much tax money will be spent there.

Personally I'd prefer a 5 year budget but one that is ideally free of pork and has a line item veto to insure that it is as lean as is possible. But you're missing the forest for the trees. Whether or not the measure becomes law it demonstrates that a lot of people are saying enough is enough!
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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/3/2010, 3:44 am

Mirage wrote:
Personally I'd prefer a 5 year budget but one that is ideally free of pork and has a line item veto to insure that it is as lean as is possible. But you're missing the forest for the trees. Whether or not the measure becomes law it demonstrates that a lot of people are saying enough is enough!

You can forget about the line item veto. The Supreme Court has already ruled that it's unconstitutional.

http://www.initiativesamendment.org/lineitemveto.htm

As far as "a lot of people saying enough is enough," where were these people when Bush started a war without a mechanism to pay for it? Where were you when the Medicare Prescription Drug plan was passed and financed with borrowing?

A lot of us warned you people time and time again that Bush was a profligate spender who would drive this country into the ditch, and that's exactly what has happened.

The financial meltdown made things even worse, and by the time that Obama took office, he was faced with a $1.3 trillion deficit, and a full blown recession. Unfortunately, the only way out of a recession is to increase government spending, both to stimulate the economy and to provide a safety net for the unemployed.

Once the economy recovers, then I agree that we need to get the budget balanced as soon as possible. The problem is that we're also facing a Social Security and Medicare crisis that's only going to get worse as the boomers continue to retire. We cannot just walk away from those obligations.

Meanwhile, health care insurance premiums are skyrocketing. Yet you oppose any attempt to reform the system, even when the CBO projects that it will save us a trillion dollars over the next 10 years.

How can you be for a balanced budget on one hand, yet oppose a plan that will reduce our deficits?
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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/3/2010, 4:30 am

You can forget about the line item veto. The Supreme Court has already ruled that it's unconstitutional.

You're forgetting that the court ruled that wording to be unconstitutional however an Amendment would by definition be Constitutional.


Where were you when the Medicare Prescription Drug plan was passed and financed with borrowing?


I was busy making money. Razz

Seriously! Did I ever say I was OK with that?

I don't know why you always try to imply I'm some kind of loyal Bushie. If I think he's getting a bad rap I weigh in just as I do when I feel McDermott is. That doesn't make me a McGroupie either despite what a few others have claimed.


A lot of us warned you people time and time again that Bush was a profligate spender who would drive this country into the ditch, and that's exactly what has happened.

Bush hasn't been President in over a year now and has nothing to do with new spending. If I dig a 5 foot hole and you make it a 20 foot hole eventually somebody's still gotta fill that hole before somebody gets hurt regardless of who dug the hole.

Once the economy recovers, then I agree that we need to get the budget balanced as soon as possible.

Fundamental flaw with that thinking. Constantly borrowing to create temporary jobs while running up massive debt doesn't work. But if if you make the claim that it does what happens when US debt must be repaid in a 3rd party currency? What happens when no more can be borrowed? And at that it is highly debatable as to how much actual benefit the stimulus money will buy. Add to that the proposed Obama-Care boondoggle costs, which as structured will neither save money or reduce hospital costs, and you will see that you can't tax enough to get deficit relief. So to spur business growth you must have tax breaks. Why not have the tax breaks in the 1st place and use that growth to increase jobs & revenue?

Meanwhile, health care insurance premiums are skyrocketing. Yet you oppose any attempt to reform the system, even when the CBO projects that it will save us a trillion dollars over the next 10 years.

Not true. And I have been saying let's pass just the portions we agree on for now and work out the rest. While true I won't accept just any "attempt" because I want something that actually has a chance to work but calling getting taxed 3 years before the benefits begin is clearly NOT a "savings." And now it seems like the plan is the unions won't be getting taxed before Obama is out of office - which means that money may never get applied towards the costs by some action later after we would already be committed to the course.

How can you be for a balanced budget on one hand, yet oppose a plan that will reduce our deficits?

Who said they are mutually exclusive? In any event a massive cut in government spending is needed. And you might not like what gets cut, but even Obama admits some funding must get cut. NASA, for example.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/3/2010, 5:04 pm

Mirage wrote:

I don't know why you always try to imply I'm some kind of loyal Bushie.

Actually, that is not my intent. I'm simply pointing out that Obama inherited one hell of a mess.

Mirage wrote:

A lot of us warned you people time and time again that Bush was a profligate spender who would drive this country into the ditch, and that's exactly what has happened.

Bush hasn't been President in over a year now and has nothing to do with new spending. If I dig a 5 foot hole and you make it a 20 foot hole eventually somebody's still gotta fill that hole before somebody gets hurt regardless of who dug the hole.

I would agree with this statement if it reflected reality, but it doesn't. When Obama took office, the deficit for 2009 was 1.3 trillion. The final deficit was around 1.7 trillion. Using your "digging" analogy, that's more like Bush dug a 20 foot hole, and Obama dug it only inches deeper.

You simply cannot blame Obama for the deficit that he inherited. Nor can you reasonably expect him to fix everything immediately.

Mirage wrote:


Once the economy recovers, then I agree that we need to get the budget balanced as soon as possible.

Fundamental flaw with that thinking. Constantly borrowing to create temporary jobs while running up massive debt doesn't work. But if if you make the claim that it does what happens when US debt must be repaid in a 3rd party currency? What happens when no more can be borrowed? And at that it is highly debatable as to how much actual benefit the stimulus money will buy. Add to that the proposed Obama-Care boondoggle costs, which as structured will neither save money or reduce hospital costs, and you will see that you can't tax enough to get deficit relief. So to spur business growth you must have tax breaks. Why not have the tax breaks in the 1st place and use that growth to increase jobs & revenue?

The stimulus bill was loaded with tax breaks, and according to the CBO, the stimulus package created up to 2 million jobs.

CBO: Stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs


The idea of pumping money into the economy during a recession is hardy a radical idea. . It's exactly what most economists say we should do to stimulate our economy during a recession. Truth be told, at the time the package was proposed, many economists were complaining that the stimulus package was too small.


Mirage wrote:

Meanwhile, health care insurance premiums are skyrocketing. Yet you oppose any attempt to reform the system, even when the CBO projects that it will save us a trillion dollars over the next 10 years.

Not true.

Yeah, I just looked it up, and it appears that I was incorrect. The correct figure is a reduction of $132 billion over 10 years.

Quote :
The CBO found the Senate Democrats' version of health care reform would reduce the deficit by $132 billion over 10 years. The deficit is expected to go down because tax increases and cost savings in the bill are expected to exceed the cost of the new programs and tax credits.

I stand corrected. I should have double checked that before I posted it.

The $1 trillion figure came from the Obama administration, and that's over 20 years, not 10. Apparently the President's estimate is based upon a percentage of GDP, and not on an official estimate from CBO. Here is a link to how the 1 trillion figure was arrived at, if you're interested...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/01/barack-obama/health-care-reform-estimates-deficit-reduction-are/

Mirage wrote:

How can you be for a balanced budget on one hand, yet oppose a plan that will reduce our deficits?

Who said they are mutually exclusive? In any event a massive cut in government spending is needed. And you might not like what gets cut, but even Obama admits some funding must get cut. NASA, for example.

You might not like what gets cut either. A massive cut in government spending probably isn't feasible. So we'll have to raise revenues as well, not just cut spending.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/11/2010, 9:49 am

Just 2 things I care to comment on here.

Actually, that is not my intent. I'm simply pointing out that Obama inherited one hell of a mess.

You simply cannot blame Obama for the deficit that he inherited. Nor can you reasonably expect him to fix everything immediately.

Whether you want to blame Bush or I want to blame the Dem Congress that went along with not addressing problems the fact is Obama and the Dems are making the problems far worse and far more costly as many of us see it.

CBO: Stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs

Interesting point here. As I understand it a noticeable amount of that spending goes to running state government to avoid addressing needed spending cuts and government hiring and government raises. But this morning the cable news channel (similar to CLTV) is reporting that in FL many of those jobs created from state building projects may be going to foreign nationals - not unemployed US citizens. Hopefully they will have a link to their segment soon if someone else doesn't run the story.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/11/2010, 3:13 pm

Mirage wrote:
Just 2 things I care to comment on here.

Actually, that is not my intent. I'm simply pointing out that Obama inherited one hell of a mess.

You simply cannot blame Obama for the deficit that he inherited. Nor can you reasonably expect him to fix everything immediately.

Whether you want to blame Bush or I want to blame the Dem Congress that went along with not addressing problems the fact is Obama and the Dems are making the problems far worse and far more costly as many of us see it.

How exactly are "Obama and the Dems" making the problems "far worse?" The economy has grown, job losses are coming down, the stock market has rebounded, etc. Can you point to anything at all that has "gotten worse" because of actions taken since Obama became our president?

Mirage wrote:

CBO: Stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs

Interesting point here. As I understand it a noticeable amount of that spending goes to running state government to avoid addressing needed spending cuts and government hiring and government raises. But this morning the cable news channel (similar to CLTV) is reporting that in FL many of those jobs created from state building projects may be going to foreign nationals - not unemployed US citizens. Hopefully they will have a link to their segment soon if someone else doesn't run the story.

From the same article...

Quote :
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office study also said the $862 billion stimulus added between 1.5 to 3.5 percentage points to the growth of the economy in 2009.

IMHO, that's pretty damned impressive. We've come a long way from the dark days of 2008.

The last thing that we need is for the States to start massive job cutbacks. As for your contention that "many" of the jobs from "state building projects" are going to "foreign nationals," I seriously doubt that. I looked around and found absolutely nothing that supports that view. If you ever find a link on that, please post it, because I'd really like to see it.

Thanks!
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/14/2010, 3:19 pm

Scorpion wrote:
Mirage wrote:
Just 2 things I care to comment on here.

Actually, that is not my intent. I'm simply pointing out that Obama inherited one hell of a mess.

You simply cannot blame Obama for the deficit that he inherited. Nor can you reasonably expect him to fix everything immediately.

Whether you want to blame Bush or I want to blame the Dem Congress that went along with not addressing problems the fact is Obama and the Dems are making the problems far worse and far more costly as many of us see it.

How exactly are "Obama and the Dems" making the problems "far worse?" The economy has grown, job losses are coming down, the stock market has rebounded, etc. Can you point to anything at all that has "gotten worse" because of actions taken since Obama became our president?


You know, this is a pretty straightforward question. Considering all your bitching about Obama, I would expect that you would be able to post a whole list of items that have "gotten worse" because of Obama's actions.

If you can't think of anything to post, then perhaps you should consider re-examining your beliefs.
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/14/2010, 6:36 pm

Scorpion wrote:


You know, this is a pretty straightforward question. Considering all your bitching about Obama, I would expect that you would be able to post a whole list of items that have "gotten worse" because of Obama's actions.

If you can't think of anything to post, then perhaps you should consider re-examining your beliefs.

Either that or stop taking everything spouted on conservative talk radio as gospel.
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/16/2010, 2:21 am

-Bump-
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   3/28/2010, 2:53 pm

Wow. I figured that Mirage would be all over this. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at his reluctance to answer a simple question, but after all, he did start this thread.

It just seems to me that anyone who supports calling for a Constitutional Convention should be willing to tell us exactly why we need one.

Oh well, perhaps he is taking my advice and is re-examining his position.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 States in Process of Calling for a Constitutional Convention   4/7/2010, 5:48 pm

Yeah. Well it looks like Mirage has once again run away from an honest discussion, so I won't even bother to bump this topic again. I've given him more than enough time to respond.

I've had a lot of "discussions" with Mirage over the last 6 years, and I've noticed that they almost always end the same way that this one did...
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