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 The Science of Torture

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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   2/25/2013, 3:33 pm

Artie60438 wrote:
Looks like a win-win for me Very Happy: The less interaction I have to have with you,the better.

You are not now, nor have you ever been, under any obligation whatsoever to have any interaction with me. Yet, you have done so out of your own free will.
What does that say about you?
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Scorpion

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   2/25/2013, 4:34 pm

happy jack wrote:

Seeing as how you answered the questions I asked of you not by giving me an answer, but rather by providing your answer to “Scorpion and others”, I have answered Heretic’s questions not by posting my answers on the board, but rather by sharing them with a guy in South Chicago who stands on the corner wearing two hats and screaming at passing cars.

Yeah. Well I get your point, but I certainly hope that you're not equating me with the guy from South Chicago...
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Artie60438

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   2/25/2013, 6:38 pm

happy jack wrote:
Artie60438 wrote:
Looks like a win-win for me Very Happy: The less interaction I have to have with you,the better.

[b]You are not now, nor have you ever been, under any obligation whatsoever to have any interaction with me. Yet, you have done so out of your own free will.
Guilty! The ridiculous crap you post is just too tempting to pass up.
Pinata wrote:

What does that say about you?
I can't help it that I enjoy the amusement that you provide. I'll even let you in on a secret. I'm not the only one either. Laughing
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happy jack

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   2/25/2013, 7:17 pm

Scorpion wrote:
happy jack wrote:

Seeing as how you answered the questions I asked of you not by giving me an answer, but rather by providing your answer to “Scorpion and others”, I have answered Heretic’s questions not by posting my answers on the board, but rather by sharing them with a guy in South Chicago who stands on the corner wearing two hats and screaming at passing cars.

Yeah. Well I get your point, but I certainly hope that you're not equating me with the guy from South Chicago...

Nah.
You don't wear hats.

Laughing
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   4/19/2013, 8:06 am

US torture of prisoners is 'indisputable', independent report finds

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An independent examination of the US rendition programme after 9/11 has concluded that it is "indisputable" that America tortured prisoners, and that the country's highest officials were responsible.

A 580-page report published on Tuesday by the Constitution Project, a non-partisan Washington-based thinktank, concludes that the programme was unjustified and counterproductive, damaging to the country's reputation, and has placed US military personnel at risk of mistreatment if they are themselves taken prisoner.

In findings similar to those of a report published two months ago by the New York NGO Open Society Justice Initiative, the study concludes that the US rendition programme enjoyed widespread international co-operation, with the UK, Canada, Italy, Germany and Sweden identified as prominent supporters alongside Egypt, Syria, Morocco and Jordan.

The authors also conclude that the UK-Libyan rendition operations that resulted in the abduction of two dissidents who were taken to Tripoli along with their families in 2004 were intended not to combat international terrorism, but to "gain favour" with the Gaddafi regime.



Bush-era torture use 'indisputable,' Guantanamo must close, task force finds

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An independent task force issued a damning review of Bush-era interrogation practices on Tuesday, saying the highest U.S. officials bore ultimate responsibility for the "indisputable" use of torture, and it urged President Barack Obama to close the Guantanamo detention camp by the end of 2014.

In one of the most comprehensive studies of U.S. treatment of terrorism suspects, the panel concluded that never before had there been "the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after 9/11 directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody."

"It is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture," the 11-member task force, assembled by the nonpartisan Constitution Project think tank, said in their 577-page report.

. . .

The panel, which included leading politicians from both parties, two U.S. retired generals and legal and ethics scholars, spent two years examining the U.S. treatment of suspected militants detained after the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Panel members interviewed former Clinton, Bush and Obama administration officials, military officers and former prisoners, and the investigation looked at U.S. practices at Guantanamo, in Afghanistan and Iraq and at the CIA's former secret prisons overseas.

. . .

But the panel concluded there was "no firm or persuasive evidence" that the use of such techniques yielded "significant information of value."







Predictably, it seems the conservative media is largely silent on the issue.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   4/19/2013, 10:43 am

Yes, Of Course It Was Torture

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The report – which I urge you to read in full when you get the chance – dispassionately lays out all the possible legal definitions of torture (domestic and international) and then describes what the Bush administration authorized. The case is not a close one. Bush and Cheney are war criminals, as are all those involved in the implementation of these torture techniques. Perhaps the most powerful part of the case is an examination of what the US itself has condemned as torture when committed by other countries. Take one often lightly-dismissed torture technique – stress positions. The Bush administration’s own State Department has called these techniques torture:

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The State Department criticized Jordan in its 2006 Human Rights report for subjecting detainees to “forced standing in painful positions for prolonged periods.” In its 2000, 2001 and 2002 reports on Iran, “suspension for long periods in contorted positions” is described as torture. In its 2001 and 2002 Human Rights report on Sri Lanka, “suspension by the wrists or feet in contorted positions” and remaining in “unnatural positions for extended periods” are described as “methods of torture.”

Flash forward to what the Bush administration authorized in one case:

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While being held in this position [a prolonged standing stress position involving being shackled to a bar or hook in the ceiling by the detainee’s wrists, typically while naked, for a continual period of time, ranging from two to three days continuously, up to two or three months intermittently] some of the detainees were allowed to defecate in a bucket. A guard would come to release their hands from the bar or hook in the ceiling so that they could sit on the bucket. None of them, however, were allowed to clean themselves afterwards. Others were made to wear a garment that resembled a diaper. This was the case for Mr. Bin Attash in his fourth place of detention. However, he commented that on several occasions the diaper was not replaced so he had to urinate and defecate on himself while shackled in the prolonged stress standing position. When [prisoners fell] asleep held in this position, the whole weight of their bodies was effectively suspended from the shackled wrists, transmitting the strain through the arms to the shoulders.

The Bush administration is on record that this is torture. Now take one of the more famous techniques – waterboarding. Again, the Bush administration itself condemned the use of this barbarism when deployed by others and described it quite simply as torture:

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In the section entitled Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the 2003 – 2007 Bush State Department Human Rights report on Sri Lanka described “near-drowning” as “torture and abuse.” In its Human Rights Reports for Tunisia from 1996 to 2004, “submersion of the head in water” is deemed “torture.” In the 2005 and 2006 Human Rights Reports for Tunisia, this practice is considered “torture and abuse.”

Domestic case law universally argues that waterboarding is unequivocally torture – and the report has a comprehensive set of cases to back it up. Dick Cheney has publicly admitted that he authorized this torture technique – and the report documents it occurred much more often than on the oft-cited “rare three” “high-value” prisoners. So Dick Cheney has conceded that he authorized acts which his own administration condemned as torture when committed by other countries, and which all international and domestic legal precedent defines as torture. One prisoner, as we know, was subjected to this torture technique 183 times.

I really don't think they can talk their way out of it anymore.
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edge540

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   4/19/2013, 10:53 am

My favorite part:
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But none of that matters as a legal or ethical issue. What matters – and the law is crystal clear about this – is that torture and anything even close to torture be prosecuted aggressively. This is true especially when a government is claiming urgent national security in defense of its own crimes. The laws specifically rule out any defense on those grounds. So either we are a republic governed by the rule of law or we are not. Yes, there is discretion as to whether to prosecute any crime. But war crimes are the gravest on the books and have no statute of limitations. Prosecuting them is integral to adherence to Geneva, which itself is integral to the maintenance of the rule of law and of Western civilization itself. Either we set up a Truth Commission and find a way to pardon the war criminals, while establishing their guilt – which would at least give a brief nod to the rule of law. Or we have to take this report and the Senate Intelligence Committee’s findings as a basis for legal action for war crimes.

There is no way forward without this going back. And there is no way past this but through it.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   4/19/2013, 11:17 am

And the whole world's watching. I don't see a way out that doesn't lose us even more credibility...
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   12/10/2014, 11:51 am

Well, the report's out, confirming what we already knew.  It was torture, and it didn't do shit.

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#1 The CIA's use of its enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees.

The Committee fmds, based on a review of CIA interrogation records, that the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means of obtaining accurate information or gaining detainee cooperation.

. . .

While being subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques and afterwards, multiple CIA detainees fabricated information, resulting in faulty intelligence. Detainees provided fabricated information on critical intelligence issues, including the terrorist threats which the CIA identified as its highest priorities.

Exactly as torture does.

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#2: The CIA's justification for the use of its enhanced interrogation techniques rested on inaccurate claims of their effectiveness.

The CIA represented to the White House, the National Security Council, the Department of Justice, the CIA Office of Inspector General, the Congress, and the public that the best measure of effectiveness of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques was examples of specific terrorist plots "thwarted" and specific terrorists captured as a result of the use of the techniques. The CIA used these examples to claim that its enhanced interrogation techniques were not only effective, but also necessary to acquire "otherwise unavailable" actionable intelligence that "saved lives."

The Committee reviewed 20 of the most frequent and prominent examples of purported counterterrorism successes that the CIA has attributed to the use of its enhanced interrogation techniques, and found them to be wrong in fundamental respects. In some cases, there was no relationship between the cited counterterrorism success and any information provided by  detainees during or after the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. In the remaining cases, the CIA inaccurately claimed that specific, otherwise unavailable information was acquired from a CIA detainee "as a result" of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, when in fact the information was either: (1) corroborative of information already available to the CIA or other elements of the U.S. Intelligence Community from sources other than the CIA detainee, and was therefore not "otherwise unavailable"; or (2) acquired from the CIA detainee prior to the use of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. The examples provided by the CIA included numerous factual inaccuracies.

In providing the "effectiveness" examples to policymakers, the Department of Justice, and others, the CIA consistently omitted the significant amount of relevant intelligence obtained from sources other than CIA detainees who had been subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques—leaving the false impression the CIA was acquiring unique information from the use of the techniques.

Some of the plots that the CIA claimed to have "disrupted" as a result of the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques were assessed by intelligence and law enforcement officials as being infeasible or ideas that were never operationalized.

And it cost us:

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#20: The CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program damaged the United States' standing in the world, and resulted in other significant monetary and non-monetary costs.

The CIA's Detention and Interrogation Pi-ogram created tensions with U.S. partners and allies,
leading to formal demarches to the United States, and damaging and complicating bilateral
inteUigence relationships.
In one example, inJune 2004, the secretary ofstate ordered the U.S. ambassador inCountry | to
deliver ademarche to CounteyB/li^ssence demanding [Country | Government] provide full
access to all [Country | detainees" to the International Committee ofthe Red
Cross. At the time, however, the detainees Country | was holding included detainees being held
in secret at the CIA's behest."^^
More broadly, the program caused immeasurable damage to the United States' public standing,
as well as to the United States' longstanding global leadership on human rights in general and the
prevention of torture in particular.
CIA records indicate that the CIA's Detention and Interrogation Program cost well over $300
million in non-personnel costs. This included funding for the CIA to construct and maintain
detention facilities, including two facilities costing nearly $| million that were never used, in
part due to host country political concerns.
To encourage governments to clandestinely host CIAdetention sites, or to increase supportfor
existing sites, the CIA provided millions of dollars in cash payments to foreign government officials. CIA Headquaiters ciicQiira^^ Stations to eonstruct "wish lists" of iproposedi
financial assistance to
"thinlc bigf' in terms of that assistance.'*^

The image-to-text conversion is a bit off.  Just read the original.

To put it briefly:

Quote :
(1) CIA torture did not work.
(2) The CIA lied about what it was doing and whether it was working.
(3) The CIA did a terrible job running its torture program.
(4) The CIA also lied about the brutality of its methods.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   12/10/2014, 12:00 pm

Fox News is in overdrive, as expected.  Moral ambiguity aside, they're all still operating as if reality is a Walker: Texas Ranger/24 episode, a non-existent alternate universe were torture does work.  That level of denial continues to be dangerous for the country.  

McCain, or as I'm assuming the GOP calls him, "that giant pussy", gave a great speech:

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I have long believed some of these practices amounted to torture, as a reasonable person would define it, especially, but not only the practice of waterboarding, which is a mock execution and an exquisite form of torture. Its use was shameful and unnecessary; and, contrary to assertions made by some of its defenders and as the Committee’s report makes clear, it produced little useful intelligence to help us track down the perpetrators of 9/11 or prevent new attacks and atrocities.

I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence. I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it. I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering. Most of all, I know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights, which are protected by international conventions the U.S. not only joined, but for the most part authored.

I know, too, that bad things happen in war. I know in war good people can feel obliged for good reasons to do things they would normally object to and recoil from.

I understand the reasons that governed the decision to resort to these interrogation methods, and I know that those who approved them and those who used them were dedicated to securing justice for the victims of terrorist attacks and to protecting Americans from further harm. I know their responsibilities were grave and urgent, and the strain of their duty was onerous.

I respect their dedication and appreciate their dilemma. But I dispute wholeheartedly that it was right for them to use these methods, which this report makes clear were neither in the best interests of justice nor our security nor the ideals we have sacrificed so much blood and treasure to defend.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   12/10/2014, 12:11 pm

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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   12/11/2014, 8:07 am

Pointless Denials of Torture Report Details

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Dick Cheney, former CIA officials Michael Hayden and Jose Rodriguez, and even the $80 million contract psychologists claim details in the newly released Senate Torture Report are "hooey" and "a bunch of crap" or they didn't know about the use of the techniques like "rectal feeding" and the program worked.

Their protestations are pointless. This report is the latest, but certainly not the only report containing many of the same details they dispute.

. . .

The CIA didn't just corrupt our values, it dragged other countries into the mud with it. Instead of making us safer, the CIA just put a bigger target on our backs.
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Heretic

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PostSubject: Re: The Science of Torture   12/11/2014, 8:52 am

Did torture help lead to bin Laden?

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Did waterboarding and other coercive interrogation techniques that were used on al Qaeda detainees in CIA custody eventually lead to the Navy SEAL operation that killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan early in the morning of May 2, 2011?

The Senate Intelligence Committee report released Tuesday has a simple answer to that: Hell, no!

According to the Senate report, the critical pieces of information that led to discovering the identity of the bin Laden courier, Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, (Ahmed the Kuwaiti) whose activities eventually pointed the CIA to bin Laden's hiding place in Pakistan, were provided by an al-Qaeda detainee before he was subjected to CIA coercive interrogation, and was based also upon information that was provided by detainees that were held in the custody of foreign governments. (The report is silent on the interesting question of whether any of these unnamed foreign governments obtained any of their information by using torture.)

Further critical information about the Kuwaiti was also provided by conventional intelligence techniques and was not elicited by the interrogations of any of the CIA detainees, according to the report.

Even worse for the CIA -- which has consistently defended the supposed utility of the interrogation program, including in the hunt for bin Laden -- a number of CIA prisoners who were subjected to coercive interrogations consistently provided misleading information designed to wave away CIA interrogators from the bin Laden courier who would eventually prove to be the key to finding al Qaeda's leader.
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